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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #1 
Fred I  did not forgot you  and fate r many great  mails  I have to sit down  and give some  short feedback on the idea  why we have different zoning. Our  zoning is   not really based on performance. Yes we use  H  and performance  if we  do not have a MOXY  but   the idea of    our " zoning " is  to know  what i  can  trigger or  stimulate in what  Zoning  so I  do not all the time always overload  the limiter and always " kill " and overload the  compensator. So  I will this week start into this  fun section with  for sure a lot of feed backs  and questions.
fitbyfred

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 #2 
Juerg, hi and thanks for looking out for all the many posted ideas to comment on. There's much to work on each day and I'm happy to see your thoughts any time these beccome available. 

Best luck,
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Okay  here  a  very short  intro in how we look  at " Zoning"  . I hate the  word  zoning as it  is a  " restrictive"  word   creating the feeling of   limitation. Nevertheless  it  may be  an easy  word  to understand in the context  of a  intensity control with  different tools.
 In our case we  use  MOXY  to  find the intensity control  and hope  to add as  many additional  cheap  bio markers  or  tolls  to enhance the  option of controlling the " zone" . Our favorite  additional feed backs  are HR  and RF  and  in sports  where we  can assess and measure performance  performance  as in wattage  / speed / levels  or perhaps  time over a distance.

 How  do we use  " Zones'  and MOXY.
 a) in a  TIP  we  relay have  only three  real  clear options  and perhaps  we can discuss the forth.

ARI  as in Active recovery intensity.  ARI  is characterized  by an increase in SmO2  as a sign of more delivery of O2  than is needed  for the current performance.
 It  can but not has to be as well combined  with an increase in tHb. In other words. Non of the systems  is  even close to its own limitation so no need  for compensator as  we  do not push any system to its limit. We use  ARI  for many  types off workouts  we  can discuss later on.

STEI as in structural endurance Intensity STEI is characterized by  reaching a  " homeostasis  in the limiter  and   this  homeostasis  as in  SmO2    and  tHb  can be maintain   due to the fact that we  can use  compensators  to maintain a relative stable  intake of  O2  ( delivery  and   utilization) This  homeostasis  is  time sensitive  and depends  how  much a compensator  has to help  and  therefor the question is , when the work of the compensator is  so intense, that he reaches  his own limitation  and  has therefore  to give up  compensation.

 Now  I get lost short here. But that's  why there is  no such thing like LT. If you find an LT  in a  3 minute t step test the  speed  and HR  at the so called LT  is very different than  when you find the LT in a 6 min step test or    when you despite  FTP  is MAX Lass or  LT.  If there is  such thing like  and LT it  should  be applicable  for any different distance,  as when lactate in  production and lactate  disappear  is out  of balance  so lactate accumulates  it  would meand  no  time sensitivity  but it  is.  Here  and we talk 2013
 

Reproducibility of lactate markers during 4 and 8 min stage incremental running: A pilot study

James P. Gavin

x

James P. Gavin

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Correspondence

  • Corresponding author.

    emailemail

    ,

    Mark E.T. Willems

    x

    Mark E.T. Willems

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    ,

    Stephen D. Myers

    x

    Stephen D. Myers

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    Department of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Chichester, UK

    Received: January 2, 2013; Received in revised form: August 11, 2013; Accepted: August 13, 2013; Published Online: September 11, 2013

    DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jsams.2013.08.006

     

    Abstract

    Objectives

    This study examined the reproducibility of speed corresponding to specific lactate markers during incremental treadmill running of normal and prolonged stage durations.

    Design

    Nineteen healthy participants (14 male, 5 female) performed repeated, incremental treadmill running trials of 4 and 8 min stages on separate days to examine the test–retest reproducibility of speed at lactate markers. Two trials were completed for each duration in a randomised order.

    Methods

    Fingertip blood samples drawn upon stage completion were analysed for plasma lactate, then used to determine running speed at: 2.0, 3.5, and 4.0 mmol l−1 fixed blood lactate accumulations (FBLA), a 1 mmol l−1 rise from baseline, and the markers: the deviation maximum (Dmax), the Dmax of the second curve derivative (D2Lmax), the lactate threshold (LT) and log–log LT.

    Results

    The 2.0 mmol l−1 FBLA reported the lowest mean bias between 4 min trials (−0.06 km h−1), with the narrowest limits of agreement (LoA) (−1.78 to 1.66 km h−1). The Dmax had the second lowest bias (0.14 km h−1), D2Lmax the second narrowest LoA (−1.93 to 2.90 km h−1). For 8 min stages, the 1 mmol l−1 rise demonstrated, low mean bias (−0.13 km h−1) and narrowest LoA (−1.22 to 0.97 km h−1) between trials.

    Conclusions

    This preliminary report suggests the reproducibility of running speed at lactate summary markers is influenced by stage duration for incremental treadmill running. Varied marker reproducibility between 4 and 8 min stages indicates different blood lactate response, and therefore workload calculation, according to stage length. Consideration of marker construct is recommended.

    Keywords:

    Sports medicine, Running, Lactate testing, Incremental exercise, Exercise tolerance, Training prescription

     

Back  to " zoning"  STEI  is used in many work outs , where I like  to push  compensator  for a while and than  let them recover  and so on or where I like to push the limiter  without   overloading  the compensator

FEI  as in Functional endurance intensity. is the fluent   move  from STEI  to FEI  as the compensator can't maintain the  job  and has  to look for his own survival. It is therefor  characterized by a  out of balance  O2  delivery  and utilization , meaning that there is more O2  used than  can be delivered. So SmO2  will drop.  Thb  does not has to drop as  a compensator will still desperately try  to   delivery  but it simply is  not good enough.

So  you can workout in the STEI  and pick any compensator  and overload him there  and as  soon you see he  starts  to get to its own limit  you  reduce  or stop the additional challenge you put  on the compensator in a zone, where he  not has to work  and you can play with  this. In the FEOI  zone you can't  do that anymore.
Simple example. You lie  to stimulate DPG   to improve  O2  release  from the blood to the tissue. You can ride  on the lower intensity of STEI  and now challenge over your breathing the  release of  O2 . MOXY  will tell you whether you are success full  and than  you  let go the stimulation  and MOXY will tell you when you are ready to  do the next   stimulation. So you create a  respiratory induced  acidosis  with the same stimulation on the  O2  diss curve  as when you go  all out to create a metabolic  acidosis  with  all the good   but as  well involved  risks  too many respiratory acidosis  workouts  may have.. So track and field is  an easy  field  where this  could be  easy used in  case of stress fracture  but still the need  of maintaining the  O2  release ability. workouts  may have.

HEI or HI  as in  High  endurance   or  just High intensity. We  can discuss , whether  an athlete  who can  end out a TIP  with  completing a 5 min load is  really in a high intensity. We use a RIP  to find information on  high intensity   trends  to create  an individual interval or speed  work out.

 So over the next    few month or longer  I like to  slowly introduce   some of the ideas on how you meaningful use MOXY  during a  workout  , whether this is  in a  gym or  as you do a walk  outside  for  what ever  reason. In our  challenge on meaningful tools  this will be one topic , but only if  we get as well some meaningful feedbacks  for  our  lactate users  and  a wattage users  and VO2  max users  and maximal HR  users  and 220 - age users  and so on.



fitbyfred

Development Team Member
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Posts: 168
 #4 
Juerg, hi.

I like the thread content and the intention to slowly role out the ideas related to zoning (stimulating physiologically). 

May I quickly suggest that many folks may benefit greatly from a VERY slow unfolding of this thread ? 
 
I think the new reader will certainly recognize the ARI load as common language. 
 
The new reader may not be AS familiar with the STE and FE loading, especially not relative to their current baseline ideas of A, At, AnT, VT, LT, MaxLASS, etc. etc. 
 
It may be quite challenging for someone to understand setting an STE output/load while under/over loading an FE compensator ??? 
 
What do you think ? 
 
FBF 
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Fred  , I think you are  absolutely  right  and I  often need  help in this regard. So any reader  come back and ask    as there  are no stupid  questions  but often an inability   form my side  to  explain it simple and straight forward. A  very  big weakness   from my side ( besides  others)  and  any reminder  in this regards  is very much  appreciated.
As well the fact , that when I am getting very complicated.  That's  when I am not able  to  put it into easy words  as  I may not understand in t properly either.
 I think  one    reader  once  put it properly  with the example of the Einstein picture. So  Fred  thanks  for the   input  and yes  be the devils  advocate  any time.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
Okay Fred  help. Here is a  summary of the  Zoning  if we like to  name  them  a so  and  in short again  what they  do.
\ Any readers  come back  with    questions  what that could  mean  so we  can start  some examples.

Zoning.jpg

fitbyfred

Development Team Member
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Posts: 168
 #7 
Juerg, hi. Yes that is a good start: 

Naming the assessment methods used to identify the options we then have for loading intensities.

I think the idea for this thread came from an earlier post about 2-3 weeks ago: 

http://forum.moxymonitor.com/post/1st-8-min-step-assessment-7284859?pid=1286135845#post1286135845

We did an 8-min +/- step screening on jogger and there was a little discussion on the HEI and if it could actually be identified following an 8 min load (or 5 min load) or whether we need to fail at the load before the time limit is reached for it to be an effort at/near the HEI.

We started with these: 

2209319.jpeg 

2204961.jpeg 

and ended with this:

2209318.jpeg    

Ring any bells ?

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
We  discuss in another section the  Zoning  idea  when using MOXY. Like in any other  center, people like to have a zoning  so you can use  MOXY as  an incredible  cheap  option  for physiological assessments  and as you can see by now   you can give easy a  zoning and use the classical tools  like HR  or  performance  so clients  have a guidance   to stay +-  in the target  zone. By retesting you can than adjust the zoning as we always  do.
. So  when using SmO2  as  zoning  guide   than you  give to each  zone a  HR  range or a  performance  range.. Now it is up to the coach  to  design a program as usual  and than see, whether the zoning's  changed  and with it the physiological reactions.
.  This is a major  step forward  to existing zoning's  as the 220 - age  will be readjusted    only at  1  a year , when you have your birth day ( true  it is free )  VO2  max often  changes  minimal  so zoning changes  really not  that much..
 Lactate threshold or LT . Well I do not even like to go there anymore   and just for  fun throw this  out here.

 Below  three  LT test in 3  days in a row ????
LT  three days in a row.jpg

Below   three LT test with three different  nutritional situations. Ernaehrung reihcert  for info.jpg 
Below  3  test  with three different  RPM  on a bike.
Lac and RPM.  no info.jpg 

fitbyfred

Development Team Member
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Posts: 168
 #9 
Juerg, thanks for the excellent ideas and graphics for people who may be shaking their heads after looking at their most current max HR, VO2 and LT outcomes.

Since starting with Moxy we're mostly using the STE loads following assessment for extended weeks. The average folks off the street respond very well to this endurance 'tune up', without getting sidetracked, as we get after their major limitation which is quite often max strength and it's limiting influence on tHb. 

FBF
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Really nothing to add to Fred's experience.
 In the majority of healthy people  but simply  some what unfit  people  we  like to have  fast  easy to understand  concept  where we have no  risk  of contamination  or other problems. VO2  has a mask involved  and ongoing  costs  but as well you have to be very clean when using VO2    for hoses  you use but for  sure if you reuse  some of the more expensive  masks  you see. Otherwise to be sure each customer  will have to have its  own  mask  which creates more overhead. With lactate  many coaches may be not aware, that there  are some regulation, when using invasive  methods. True nobody  cares  but  in case we have once a problem we may have  some regulations coming towards  lactate  blood sampling. Now  we  can get rid  of this  problems  and can add a much  more direct  information but the fun part is  that  when you are set up like Fred people actually can see what is going on  and have their  own body feeling with a  real  time feedback just there ahead  of them. In " unfit   people  the  vital  systems  are often not   or rarely a limitation  and as  Fred pointed out the key element is  to push the limiter  which is often vascularisation ( mitochondria density [wink] and strength  as they go hand in hand  for  blood flow.
Now   as you repeat  the assessments  you can show them by overlapping nicely where and how their body is responding. So  as it  looks more and more  fitness center see the   possibility to offer physiological testing without having to  run for a VO2  equipment  and than need  somebody  who can run it. You can easy collect data  and learn very easy  when looking  at SmO2  where the zoning is  or change  to. In fact  for the price  of  one of the  good  but cheaper VO2  models  you  can get 8 MOXY's  so you can test 8  or  at least 4  clients  with each 2 Moxy's  at the same time. You as a business person can make the math.
Ruud_G

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Posts: 279
 #11 
I agree with all of the above with one point of caution to take into account. If the Moxy zonings are narrow you will get into trouble when basing your intensities based on these zonings. Why? Because placement can give you fluctuation in that instance you will thinking you're looking at the same zone, but in fact you're not. Also when you get into the zoning demarkations you can go wrong in this instance.
fitbyfred

Development Team Member
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Posts: 168
 #12 
Ruud_G, good point.

I do aim to keep things pretty simple (and wide) with loading ideas we gain from the TIP. I see some folks have some pretty narrow loading ideas, especially sometimes for the HEI a couple breakouts -- long HEI & Short HEI ???

If we're moving into HEI workouts with folks we generally try to get the initial work loads/variables from the RIP. As you may guess, all (well most) session loading is guided live with the Moxy on Peripedal.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #13 
Ruud  , absolutely agree  with your point  and I will be back later on this    as this is  what  the zoning is all about  a interesting way  of selling a training plan, when in fact no matter  what zoning you  create  whether it is FTP  or LT  or  200 - age  it is just that a  zoning figured  out on day  X  and it works  just on that  day relatively good but the next day it is  or can be off. That is exactly the point and we are getting  slowly somewhere.
 There is no such thing like a written  zoning   but there is  such thing like live  feedback so you can adjust  to the found zoning  Day  by  day. Will be back later   again on this. Juerg  I  still wait  for  some feedback  mainly  from the FTP  wattage user  on an example of  a  meaningfull workout   in the filed  by having a power meter   on the bike   but nothing other  form lab info's  and  how  you would use a power meter    to see progress   and  information's on what you do. Once we have this settled  we  can go  and show    whether MOXY  would offer more than  just a  number in font  of a bike ( Smile )
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