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sebo2000

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 #1 
Season is officially open [smile] we had first Crit last Tuesday, we had so much fun.

Strong field E1,E2 M1 I would normally be dropped at the end like suck of potatoes or DNF, This time I was all the way to the end participating in sprint finish and got 12th place, all that with much less training in high intensity zones. All thanks to Moxy and great advice from this forum.

Moxy on right VL (dark green top chart) and left Deltoid (bright green bottom). Chart shows WPrime in red at the top. W Prime is derived from CP test fairly recent as of 5 days.

Here is interesting part:

Race starts and off the gun we have multiple attacks.

According to power meter data and my W' Garmin field in just 10min I hit my Wprime max almost 0, 1.1, I was totally surprised as it didn't feel I'm at my max, I was tired, but way from quitting, it was non event. (circle 1)
Taking under consideration it was just the begging and my system was not fully started (only short warmup) I would expect Smo2 do drop much further. 

Another few attacks/recoveries later etc. then we have a break and I'm trying to bridge to the chase group (circle 2), I do catch them and I die..., I could not follow the wheel, I thought I hit minus Wprime, I was gassed and felt it big time. I look at my W prime wow I should have plenty of power left... I looked at my Deltoid Smo2 and realized I'm out of O2.

It took 7 laps to recover, by I thought I was ready to hit again just after 2.


Few takeaways for road racing and crits specifically:

-Perfect example that power data might not be ideal in racing situations. W' works sometimes and sometimes doesn't.
-Moxy on deltoid is much more useful than on VL.
- When attacking fairy recovered, don't forget to breathe more than you need before and during attack\chase, forget about looking cool and breathe like nothing happen...

I will be comparing data with tomorrows crit, and see how it matches.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1Sge_uU9AmNR1JMbmV4V0ltaVE




 

















Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Crit.JPG, Views: 46, Size: 268.75 KB 

ryinc

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 #2 
Sebo, cool insights. Well done on the improved results too. You are leading the pack here on the forum in practical application of moxy [wink].

To be honest i actually think in this example i came to the conclusion that w' was actually quite well, in broad sense, correlated to non priority SM02 - much better than i would have guessed without seeing the data.
bobbyjobling

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 #3 
Interesting point ryinc, perhaps w' and CP formula should be based on non priority muscles SmO2 response. [smile]
sebo2000

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 #4 
By looking at race data I always knew it is close..., to the point I have custom Garmin field W' and always tried not to go to deep (better be safe than sorry), but on few occasions I have noticed I " die" before hitting the W' 0, also few times I could go negative... W' discussions  were endless why/how etc. But true answer is very nicely illustrated by Moxy.

I think the takeaway is: W' is quite close in non race environment where we control most of our "experiment/workout", but might be quite different during racing/riding where we get distracted and the goal is to race not experiment itself.

In # 2 I simply "forgot to breathe" and was looking at W' instead of Moxy... without Moxy I would be quite puzzled why I almost bonked, power was less than in # 1 where I felt quite good.

So I did another experiment this Tuesday, removed W prime from Garmin (sorry W') and added only Moxy fields. I said to myself: goal is to race hard but trying to have as high Smo2 on Deltoid as possible, that means proper breathing and timely rests, etc.

Results are quite surprising and very promising, for 45 min I was very close to bottom of my W' and didn't "feel like much". overall average power was 21 Watts more then last time! (that might feel like small number but big increase average to me) , and about 30 W NP more. I felt way less fatigued and had fresh legs at the end.

Here is how last crit looks like, using only Moxy as race guide. 

Smo2 - VL
Smo2-2 Deltoid

Crit2.JPG 







DanieleM

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 #5 
Hi Sebo,

first of all, some terminology clarification (please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
W' is considered the amount of energy that can be expended above CP.
It is not simply the measurement of anaerobic capacity as it was initially thought and its measure can be complex an could easily lead to some errors.
Anyway in a specific time period is "more or less" a fixed number of joules (20, 25, 30 KJ).

Then Skiba has made a model for W' balance which takes into account the overall tank (W') and how much of the tank is used (when working at >CP) and how much is replenished (working at <CP).
But this is just a model and since the time constant for replenish/consuming the tank of energy are specific for each athlete/person, the model is prone to errors.
Having a W' Bal equal 0 would mean that you cannot perform any kind of work at an intensity > CP.
Since you have seen W' bal less than 0 is either due to wrong settings (W' and CP) or incorrect model for your case.

Now, back on your data, I understood that you instead can better correlate the level of "fatigue" with the level of desaturation of the deltoid (less or minimal involved).
What is the reason behind this?
When I used myself the Moxy on the deltoid I could see some drops in tHB/SmO2 but with SmO2 was still pretty high.



sebo2000

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 #6 
Hi Daniele


first of all, some terminology clarification (please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
W' is considered the amount of energy that can be expended above CP.

Correct

It is not simply the measurement of anaerobic capacity as it was initially thought and its measure can be complex an could easily lead to some errors.

Correct

Anyway in a specific time period is "more or less" a fixed number of joules (20, 25, 30 KJ).Then Skiba has made a model for W' balance which takes into account the overall tank (W') and how much of the tank is used (when working at >CP) and how much is replenished (working at <CP).

My examples were based on Skiba W' model implemented in Golden Cheetah.


But this is just a model and since the time constant for replenish/consuming the tank of energy are specific for each athlete/person, the model is prone to errors.

Correct, not only agree with you 100%, but also have this nice data to back it up.


Having a W' Bal equal 0 would mean that you cannot perform any kind of work at an intensity > CP.

Correct

Since you have seen W' bal less than 0 is either due to wrong settings (W' and CP) or incorrect model for your case.

In controlled environment eg: the trainer I can never get below 0, Skiba model works fine, in race environment that model does not work well in all occasions.

This fact could be due to better cooling, more adrenaline due to excitement, more motivation etc, all of those small details are not taken under consideration by Mathematical model, BUT are really very well displayed by Moxy.

Now, back on your data, I understood that you instead can better correlate the level of "fatigue" with the level of desaturation of the deltoid (less or minimal involved).
What is the reason behind this?
When I used myself the Moxy on the deltoid I could see some drops in tHB/SmO2 but with SmO2 was still pretty high.

Those are very good questions!

Honestly, I do not know, I suspected it is related to O2 availability, but in my case it is rather excessive CO2, it seems i have pleny of O2. I would not even call it fatigue, but "fatigue above CP level" to be more specific.

I always wanted to have ability to go really hard way above CP, but slow down right on time to be able to continue and recover slightly. "Prefect attack" where you need to build the gap as quickly as possible, demonstrate huge power, discourage everyone from even thinking about chasing,  but at the same time do not explode.
It sounds easy, but it is not at list for me in all situations, some people have this "great feel" and can do this better than others, but I always look for technological advancements to detect my limits[smile]

When, I'm on TT bike, I tend to look at my VL SmO2 data instead of Deltoid, way less spikes, but I work below or at CP, and VL illustrates that quite well. While crit racing it is always full gas or rest so VL shows full recovery or full utilization, deltoid on the other hand will very well illustrate excessive CO2.

This is first season I race with Moxy, I try to observe and experiment as much as possible.






juergfeldmann

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 #7 
Sorry  can not remember  whether I  was  just thinking   through this   answer  or whether I  wrote it somewhere already

We use often in  sports  where we have a  clear priority  muscle group  and a  relative clear  non priority  muscle groups  the  NIRS on a non priority muscle in a  race  or in a  hard  training we consider  deoxy intensity  ( so where you seee SmO2  dropping  in  the load.

3 main reasons. 

a)  cardiac  limitation delivery limitation
b )  technical/ coordination limitation  limitation
c) local  muscle  group limitation.

You  than use  HR  and feeling  for respiration RF  and TV  as well as the feedback  from NIRS  from the nonpriority  muscle  to the decision making  including  your  overall  body feeling .

a ) cardiac  delivery limitation. CG  reaction.
You will feel  the inability  to  for  sure  not go  faster but as well  feel  to have problems  to maintain the  performance. You will see  HR   often stable  and RF often faster but you will see  SmO2  dropping on  the  nonpriority muscle  as well as  tHb  as a  sign  of  blood  volume shift  to the legs  to  try  to  keep performance  and you shift O2  from arms  to legs  as  you can not  contribute  more  from the delivery system as  they need  the O2  for  their  survival.

b)coordination limitation.
You see a  drop in SmO2  and  tHb in the  arms because  you start to use  them as well  to maintain  balance. HR  goes up  and  RF  goes up  and you feel  you lost  control  over  your  legs  ability  for exampel  to maintain  or increase RPM on a bike  and  you   use arms  to  try to compensate. As  your   cardiac is not  a limiter in this case  you can  afford  to use  your  arms  but the  efficiency  is gone  and you " waste " energy  for  not the  amount of performance  you  could create  with a  good coordination. 

c ) local priority  muscle limitation.. You reach a locla performance limitation due to  vascularisation limitation ( locla  delivery )  and or    a mitochondrial density limitation. Now  you   not reach a  cardiac  limitation and you like to keep  pushing so you can afford  to use  upper  body muscle  as  you  still have  enough CO  to  do this  and no BP  limitation .
 So  HR    goes up RF  goes up  SmO2  in  non  priority    and tHB  drops  due  to involvement  but  performance gain may not really  be better, as  you  may not be able to contribute  that much  with  your  arms  to the pedal performance, at least  not very efficient  pattern.
  So in all cases  no matter  what limits  you the  non priority muscel  gives you a  signal  telling  you that  you   reached an intensity  , where  one of the three options  starts  and you  will waste  energy or  run out  of energy in the  priority muscles . if  you  keep that going no matter  what is the reason.  So  that is what Seboo  seems to experience  and we  use  very often   with some nice  subjective  feedbacks from athletes  but  as mentioned  you can do an FTP  test  as a  cyclist  for  60 min  and   you can  try  to see, when you ignore  the   non priority muscle respond and push  through it  what  may happen  to you.

So in any case  , where we  have  this respond in a nonpriority muscle we  start  to feel it is getting  hard. Classical   idea  would be you   found   or  you are  at  your LT  or VT  or MAX Lass or  what ever. Reality is  you  start to run  low on  available O2 in the  priority muscel.   and the likely hood,that you will now  test  increase in lactate in the systemic    blood flow is  pretty good  so is  the likelihood that your  glucose testing would show it or  your epinephrine  levels  would  show  it and many more  substances.
. That's  why NIRS is  so  logic /. three  intensities, oxy intensity, balanced  intensity   deoxy intensity.

You  can put a  BSX  blood less lactate tester  at any non priority muscle and the results will eb pretty  close  so  if  your  calf  is  a limited  involved cyclingf muscle which is the case  for many  it  shows a  similar  wattage result  as  when you put it  on an arm muscle. We  did many of these  test  and   little   difference. . What si different  are the lactate values  you may see. and if  you   like to go more  specif  and you put  aa NIRS on  the medial or lateral  gastrocnemius  muscle  you will have some different   SmO2  reaction   the same as  when we  sue  it on VL  and RF  or  RF  with different  depth options. The trend is the same  the  actual  lactate values  are very different  depending  when you see a  SmO2  dip as it depends   whether  this  dip  is  in a  very string involved muscle and what caused  the  dip . Cardiac limitation,  coordination limitation ,  locla  msuceel  limitation

It is  as so often mentioned  the  test protocol   which creates  the  test result  not the physiological ability of  the  athlete. You do a  lactate test 2  min 4  min 6 min   and you do the same  using lactate  and NIRS  and VO2  and  SEMG  you will  when  you always repeat  the same protocol  find a  way  to predict   for this protocol the result  +-. In reality  the laodd s are not   3 min  and the reactions  are not  abes on a  3 min ttiem frame  and the body's ability to react   in this three minutes.
  That's  why we  have to go in the field  and test  during the sports activities. The  time problem is the  same in a 5/1/55  it is not better  . The difference we  not look for performance numbers  we look for physiological hints on why we  change performance  can still  go  faster  or  have to slow  down. We need this  to  set up  physiological guided  training programs. 

DanieleM

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Posts: 264
 #8 
Good point Juerg.
Is it possible to differentiate the type of limitation based on the trend on the "less involved" muscle?

I think that in case a (central delivery limitation) we should a clear drop in tHB due to strong vasocostriction which then causes a drop in SmO2 (balance of delivery/utilization).
In the other cases we may still see some drop in SmO2 due to higher utilization but possibly not that big as in case a and possibly with a different tHB trend?







juergfeldmann

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 #9 
Daniele  absolutely  and I    will show  some trends  have not enough cases  yet to be   sure ( only  about  250 +- cases  where  I found  the  same trend  but  can show it   and has  o eb taken  with care  till we  have a decent amount  of   numbers  to   not just speculate  or assume . I  need  500 +  cases  where  can repeat  before i  think it may  be   true or  at least  show a trend.  Will dig some out  in connection  with a  case  we  discussed n here as t its in the same pattern 
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