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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
Workout in a metabolic balance means, that for the given  time  and load  I  have a balance between  O2  delivery and utilization. 
 This intensity is the key  ingredient  we searched over all this years  and developed a lot of indirect ideas in testing  and other means  to  find this point.
It created as well many  ongoing discussions  on what is the best indirect  method. Really the bets method  to see ho w you can maintain a  certain intensity iss  the  direct method. So  to now  surprise  is  FTP  (  functional threshold power) in  cycling the method  of  choice  as it is  real practical  and tells  you what the physical load  is  over the  one hour  TT. There is a  small draw  back  as we not  can assess very dya before a  ride  where the  real current today FTP  may be. This leads  back  to the indirect hope, that we are as close as  possible  and we start to use  formulas  and calculation to predict what ever  performance we like to predict. This despite the fact, that  every  single  cyclists knows  form feeling and experience, that  FTP  load is not always  everyday achievable. but as well some days  you feel even better.
In sports , where we have no such thing like a  great  objective performance measure , like  cross country  running  or  cross-country skiing, lie tennis  or  badminton  or ice hockey  you name it. Much more activities out there, where we  can no  easy  asses physical objective performance  to be used as a mathematical   idea  for  intensity control. All this  sport but possibly as well cycling  would   be  for sure  very happy, when you  have a  direct immediate  feedback , whet he you are in a balance  or not,
 After all , that is  what we created  artificially  with %  of VO2  max  or  with  today  at least 20 different ideas on how to find  the LT ( lactate threshold ) if  he  actually exists  but for sure  ideas like MAX LASS  ideas, which most likely  are the closest indirect   feedback on metabolic balance we  can get.  Now  you may understand  why  we  sine  Portamon   many years back  have fun to see this  I  intensity  directly as we  work out..

Now  a  real FTP  60 min load   will be a  load , where you are   metabolically in balance  as you do it.
 BIUT there are many FTP  60 , where you  may  in fact be able to  hold on  for 60 min but you may  not be in a metabolic balance. The other information we  can gather  with NIRS is  how  you maintain the metabolic balance  and with this   how  and where you  can invest  to improve the performance on this   metabolic balance intensity.  I like to show you three  different athletes  all  with the intend  to find this metabolic  balance. 2  are  cyclists  using their FTP  to see    what happens  and one is a  world  class  24 hour  endurance athlete, where one hour  is of no interest as it is a sprint  so a much longer duration was  chosen  to  see his  race pace. I like to show you some tHb and SmO2 reaction  and from  two  the biased  HHb  and O2Hb  reaction. You than  can think through on what  may  v be the current limiter in this athletes  based on   metabolic balance feedback.


 Below is a  workout based on  just below FTP  wattage inetsity  and  I think guide  by  wattage.

smo2  thb 60.jpg

Below  another  cycling workout  guided  by wattage  from another athlete.






mark workout thb smo2.jpg

Below a  running  workout  guided  by  MOXY
ian  workout.jpg 

Now below  one of the above cycling workouts  biased .
bias.jpg 

Compare  with the  runner below

bias  workout.jpg 

What is  most likely different  and what are the  different limiter in this two athletes.?

juergfeldmann

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 #2 
I got a  question on the metabolic  balanced  workout on how HR  would react.
 Here  the  HR reaction  from the  just below FTP  load.
hr smo2.jpg

Interesting is the HR level  at the warm up stage  and at the cool down stage as well as the SmO2  trend.
Below see the  way he  " warmed up  on  cadence  and wattage  Blue is  wattage  and red is  his cadence.
bsx  moxy  power  cad.jpg

Ruud_G

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 #3 
Hi Juerg. Nice pictures of the cyclists and the runner. I see that the runner's run was guided by Moxy but what I am wonderint whether this athlete was also running close to his (I think in running this is called critical speed?? ) for that hour. Because if he was not, the comparisons might not be possible.

If they all were close to their edge than it seems the cyclists have a delivery limitation and the runner a utilization limitation. This is than the "apparant paradox" of the endurance athlete which must have a lot of mitochondrial density, but whose delivery system is just too strong. That tHb drop in that one cyclist what was the indication for that?
Etiennebest

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 #4 
Hi Jeurg,

I'm really enjoying these challenges! Thank you for the time and effort.

First Cyclist:
There is a steady increase in tHb until the 1/3 way mark (vasodilation response probably?) and there it settles with a slow decrease even though HR keeps increasing steadily througout. SmO2 drops a bit faster than tHb increases.

At about 35min there is a small increase in SmO2 and also some "bumps" in tHb. If the wattage was held by the trainer - ERG mode set to just below his FTP (looks like it from the data but hard to tell due to large moving average), 45 mins is a very long and boring ride at the best of times, so I suspect he was getting mentally tired at this stage and perhaps realised that he was nearing the end and had to put on a "good show" to finish strong/consistent...but he is also running out of energy so although there is a bit of a recovery in SmO2 it drops off again.

It looks like his limiter is resperatory. He desaturates SmO2 nice and low so doesn't look like a delivery problem, but I think he struggles to get enough oxygen into his blood and from there to the muscle?

I think this is supported by the Biased O2Hb & HHb. O2Hb drops and just never recovers in relation to the HHb.

Second cyclist:
Limiter doesn't seem delivery related (particularly cardiovascular?) - SmO2 as a percentage of tHb is increasing all the time, so I think the limiter here is utilisation.

Runner:
The SmO2 drop starting at 800 looks interesting because there is nothing corresponding in tHb. So I would think that again vasodilation is taking place until about 4200. He just keeps delivering SmO2 throughout after 800 - so utilisation seems to be limiter.

Biased O2Hb & HHb: Inverse of the cyclist - just keeps delivering SmO2 that doesn't get used - also to remember that from what I've read here, VL becomes very efficient in ultramarathoners, so depending on where the Moxy placement was, I don't know if this is the "real" picture?
juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Ruud , absolutly great    point

Hi Juerg. Nice pictures of the cyclists and the runner. I see that the runner's run was guided by Moxy but what I am wonderint whether this athlete was also running close to his (I think in running this is called critical speed?? ) for that hour. Because if he was not, the comparisons might not be possible.

This  was one of our  first  question, when we  had some athletes looking so very different  than the  2  examples.
 When we  talk  about  FTP  or CP  in cycling  than we have to accept, that the timing  are very arbitrary  and  somebody once decides  that is  it  . FTP  classical ideas is  60 min.
 many than decided  it is too hard to get that done  so they  create   CP  20  or  CP  30  or  what ever you like  and than the mathematicians  created  formulas  so you can calculate  theoretically back to the  FTP  60. You can see in many discussion  in golden cheetah  , that some have W bal  negative  and than  they have to adjust  by using different numbers  till it fits. So yes in running thee  a many formulas  sine a  long time  you   calculate your optimal marathon  time of  5 km  time and so on based on great  and sufficient statistical numbers.  So  yes  in the case  we   show on here the ultra runner is running  not  what we consider  1 hour all out  like the FTP  idea  you used  over the 45 min.
 So  when we look at  his   %  approximate  intensity to his  1 hour    ability  , than he  was running  somewhere between  75 -  80 %,
 So in you case  next  easy workout you do  would be  80 %  of FTP  over 1 - 2 hours  or just one hour  and we see  the biased reaction, whether red is  above  blue or not.  Now  I like to give a little bit on an inside  view in this runners  case  as we prepared  for a  world  record  over   24 h  in his age  group.  Here first  TIP  all out  so really till he  ( his brain )  told him that is it )

ian  thb  smo2  TIP.jpg


Now  with some training you can see his biased  trend   and for  the once  not as used  yet here the picture  below.

ian  bias.jpg

Now below  another long run, where we  tried to see, whether we  can create  at least  at the start a delivery problem. So based on his  TIP  we speculated some potential limiter in the delivery  situation  and  created  or enhanced this limiter for a  short moment at the start.


ian  long.jpg  
You can see we where successful.

So  the  plan than was to  actually really kill the limiter  and  than  go  for a long run.
 Below the result.
ian fatigued  res.jpg  

  This is te  outcome.
 So  we  can  now  stimulate his utilization (  question  whether we need it  for his   discipline  as there is  zero positioning  fights  you go  like clock  work. but   he  likes  to start some shorter runs  where  there  are  end sprints  and   speed changes.  Now below  just to  end this  section on information  the comparison between the  two  runs  one  fatigued  limiter  and one  no fatigued  limiter.

ian  thb  fatiged  and  reco.jpg 
Summary.
 Ruud  great   points  and all I can say  the conclusion you make  I would go to the same direction as you can see on what we did.

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Etienne , thanks  for the great thoughts . I lie to add some additional  discussion point s to the different cases.
 Here  first:
 First Cyclist:
There is a steady increase in tHb until the 1/3 way mark (vasodilatation response probably?) and there it settles with a slow decrease even though HR keeps increasing steadily throughout. SmO2 drops a bit faster than tHb increases.


At about 35min there is a small increase in SmO2 and also some "bumps" in tHb. If the wattage was held by the trainer - ERG mode set to just below his FTP (looks like it from the data but hard to tell due to large moving average), 45 mins is a very long and boring ride at the best of times, so I suspect he was getting mentally tired at this stage and perhaps realized that he was nearing the end and had to put on a "good show" to finish strong/consistent...but he is also running out of energy so although there is a bit of a recovery in SmO2 it drops off again.

It looks like his limiter is respiratory. He desaturates SmO2 nice and low so doesn't look like a delivery problem, but I think he struggles to get enough oxygen into his blood and from there to the muscle?

I think this is supported by the Biased O2Hb & HHb. O2Hb drops and just never recovers in relation to the HHb.


 Below 2  graphs  . top  smo2  and tHb  form the full workout  and below  SmO2  and  HR What we  see I  the top graph looks like a  balanced  situation. This idea is overruled   when we look below  where HR  " drifts"  steady up.
2 pic hr  thb  smo2   comment.jpg

Now interesting is the start reaction of HR  and tHb Here  why: a steady o increase in HR  often suggest a steady increase in CO  if we assume that at least HR goes sup as we can see this  and SV  is stable or may increase as well.
Now we have the usual SmO2  reaction  with an immediate  drop of SmO2  due to  need  for O2 immediately but a  low delivery  initially  due to lag time of CO  and VE. This initial drop  due  to delivery problem is confirmed  as well  on tHb  drop due to initial muscle  contraction compression. Now  we discussed at length in the U shape  section, that any  start of an activity creates a vasodilatation responds. This  normally will show up as a  decompression  reaction including increase in tHb.Now in this case  wattage increase steady  to  " warm " up  and therefor  we  never had a  time  , where the body  could try to  find a balance,  but we have a steady stimulation to keep  up delivery and demand. Now  we  know as well the one of the priority  of the central governor  is  Blood pressure control. So a  steady fight    of vasodilatation  on the one  side  to  allow the needed O2  delivery  and on the other side the steady   fear of  loosing BP  control. So in other words  vasodilatation versus vasoconstriction.

So  if  we  have a vasodilatation  than we have a  certain risk , that a  CO may be not   strong enough to maintain it. So  when we see a tHb  as a sign of a vasodilatation  than we  as well have to see, how the  BP  is getting supported
 So here again to demonstrate the  situation in 2 nice pictures  from Holmberg's  /Calbets  group

scale BP.jpg 
.
So  we have  again this  fight  and  look carefully at the start. We have  some possibility  to look at live  how the body fights  or handles this situation.
a)  change in vasoconstriction and vasodilatation  in upper and lower body. That's one of the reasons  why we like to have a non-involved  muscle   with a MOXY feedback

BP upper and lower body.jpg  BP upper and lower body.jpg

b )  we can look at tHb  and HR reaction. To maintain blood pressure, when  tHB increases  due to vasodilatation we have to have a swell an increase in CO  . So either look at SV  or    at HR or both.
 In this  case we  have only  HR. What we know is , that an increase in tHb  if it is  a vasodilatation ( and not a   outflow restrictions ) has a positive effect  on preload    so we  know SV  can benefit  from these as well Remember  Preload benefits  form  back flow  so increase venous  return creates a bigger EDV  and less restriction    in the  outflow   from the left ventricle   increases  the ability  to have a smaller ESV  so  SV is up. Now  if  HR  does not go  up  we   either have only a bigger SV   or  not  at all.
 So look how the hr. reaction is in the  warm up phase. It kind of  stalls, so to maintain BP  a  correction of the initial  vasodilatation (tHb increase is needed  )  so vasoconstriction and a short stop in tHb increase. Now  as soon HR increases ( CO )  we  have better  control of  BP  and we  can if possible  keep increasing blood flow  so tHb  can go up again.  Now  watch that this is true  for a certain time. Than we see a further increase in HR  which  could indicate a further increase in  CO  and we should be able  to keep  tHb increasing . BUT it does not happened . tHb starts  to balance out.. So  we have  reached a limit of  increase in blood flow. HR  may  drift to  some  common reason lie  body temperature control, shift of blood to the skin and so on. Now  first   if we  speculate, that  there is a  potential cardiac limitation here, where  and how in a  TIP  5/1/5  would we look for confirmation.
 If you have the  answer  than you have one chance to see this on a  workout like this  . Where  and what  do we look for. ?
  Now  second  point.
there  can be a  shift of Blood  to  the  skin or   away  from the skin. In case we have a shift to the skin we will see a  drop in tHb  in the muscle.





vascularisation and time lag.JPG

Dark yellow is T3  so most likely O2  reactions  and tHB reaction in the muscle. Skinny T 1  same color is  surface  skin reactions.
So yellow is tHb Above is a case study  , where we  tried  to get a handle on muscle tHb reactions  T3 by using different stimuli  to change  surface  and muscle blood flow. The shift  into the skin has some other interesting consequences, which  can completely screw  up  sometimes SmO2  or TSI  %  logical results. More for sure  as we move  forward  and may see some   studies  coming up , where this was not considered.
 Now in our  case the HR is increasing but  tHB  does not react? what  could have happened ?
 Now  again. what would happened, if  cardiac is a limiter  and it has a  heck of  a problem to just maintain BP.  Now  we suddenly stop , what happens  not  to BP  and  blood flow  and how   would a  limiter cardiac   have to be supported  by the central governor. ? Do we see this reaction somewhere ?  If yes , where  did he started to  use  compensator to   cover up  for a limiter ? Let's rest here  and review   to see, where we go  from here.


Ruud_G

Development Team Member
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Posts: 279
 #7 
Maybe about half way compensation from respiratory starts and an initial decrease in ThB as soon as the load ends. Maybe you can share the picture at the end of the load
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