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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/marathon-rita-jeptoo-doping-ban-1.3821950
 Why is this coming balk over and over .
 look at  Sky  and Wiggins and Froome. or  running or  cross country skiing. Today  the time involved  and the training methods  cover incredible well  the ability to increase  mitochondria density and  vascularsiation
 This creates the  famous  sleeping Giant  (  Marshall 1967 ).
 In  short . Utilization   is getting far too good. So they lack   delivery ( cardiac  and respiratory  ability  to   get O2 in and  CO2  out..
 But no training  idea  actually targets   thsi systems  as  using performance does not help to even get close to understand  how  to trigger thsi  systems  to improve  so they are able to deliver   to what   the utilization systems  asked  for.
 I  barely;y  ever see  specific  respiratory or cardiac  workouts   with the goal  to  not involved  the already  supper trained   extremity muscles.
 When ever  ideas  do something it will create in high intensity  the  situation, where we  have a delivery limitation so  we improve as a part of  compensation the utilization  situation.
 BUT   the key  to be able  to utilize  is  to  first deliver.
ryinc

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 #2 
Juerg thanks for sharing this article - the utilisation vs delivery has made it much clearer to me why doping works and which types of athletes it is likely to benefit.

I think the reason that you have not seen many delivery targeted workouts is that I think people simply don't know how to design these. While it may seem "easy" or clear to you how to do this, its really not clear to many of us that don't have your knowledge and experience. If it is not clear to the coaches of professional athletes how much less clear would it be for recreational athletes and coaches, which make up a fair portion of the forum.

Now i know that you have said many times on here that you won't discuss specific workout ideas here - I (and others i think) completely understand and respect that, it would be like expecting a chef to give away their secret recipes.

What i think many of us find difficult, is we are not sure what the learning path is to try to figure these things out for ourselves.  We know we want to get there, but we are simply not sure how to gain the knowledge necessary to be able to do it.

You have mentioned that trying something for say 12 weeks and then assessing whether it worked is an option, and i agree it is, but this only becomes practical once you have a reasonably firm belief that what you are tying is possibly going to work. Otherwise it just feels as though we are trying to solve a maths problem by chewing bubblegum, and "hoping" that for some reason it might work. Basically it is hopeless. For a coach that has multiple athletes under their guidance the odds improve as they can try something different on all the athletes and then quickly apply what works and doesn't on others. Even for them though it is difficult - they have a responsibility to the athlete to at least have a reasonable chance of the program they are asking the athlete to complete to be successful. An athlete is not a guinea pig. For the recreational self-coached athlete it is even more difficult - they have a sample of 1. 

So my question is, what are the practical things that we (moxy forum users) can do, or resources we can use, to try get on a learning path that will help us to be able to better design delivery orientated workouts in future. 


 
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Good   points  and  all well accepted, and most likely a often seen   question and  problem.
One  part I like in the  respond  is :

Even for them though it is difficult - they have a responsibility to the athlete to at least have a reasonable chance of the program they are asking the athlete to complete to be successful. An athlete is not a guinea pig.


 I  think in many cases  guinea pigs  are better  controlled  than  what we see   athletes  take   enhance performance. ( read Willy  Voet  after the Festina  scandal )

The other part is  that  if  what we suggest here is  a Guinea  pig idea,   which may be true,  than we  have to go back  to  220 - age  or  VO2  max  %  or  LT  and  calculate  zoning, as this  would be no guinea  pig  and  would mean  it si the truth ???

So one option  is  take training peak  look the  7  zoning  and look the  adaptation   each zone will bring  where you see  that  zone 5  for example is  or SV  development and so on.
 Now  this is no guinea  pig  as   many do it.
 So.
 assess  an athlete see his limitation best  with a  Physio flow  look at the  SV  than  workout  based on the  wattage  zoning , reassess and confirm  the SV  increased.
 If  yes great. Repeat  this after the same duration again  assess. If SV  does not improve  anymore  than ????
 What if  it  did not improve  the  first time ????

In cycling it is   really  easy as  all the proper  zoning's  are there use a power meter  and you have  the  exact results on the  paper  you will  achieve.
 No guinea  pig  here ???
 In power use  we  no  even can pedict  Antigua  with  the different calculations.   It is very different in sports like cross country skiing  or  overall witness , where we  do not have a power feedback. There I think live feedbakcs  can  reduce  try outs  as you see , what you  do.  Disadvantage is, that you   have to have some  equipment  to establish first  the  trend  and n of  them cloud be , but not has  to be  NIRS.
Physiological  workouts   will be   the way of the future  but we are possible 5 - 10 years  ahead of  what centers  and learning institution  will offer.

There is a diction moving into this   idea in Europe  with a  Comp nay  called Swinco  who  work  on a  software  or  assessments feedbag  with NIRS  as well as on a  software  for  training guidance   with NIRS  during a  workout. Will be interesting to see where they move  with the  education or better learning or information idea.
 Than  there are  many  certified  MOXY  centers  out there now   who seem  all to  understand  and  know  how physiological  workouts   are  established  and have many customers  using this ideas  , so that would be another  place  to   go and learn  .

Summary :
 So my question is, what are the practical things that we (moxy forum users) can do, or resources we can use, to try get on a learning path that will help us to be able to better design delivery orientated workouts in future. 


 To  answer this. 
 Any coach or center  out   there, who charges  money  for  assessments  and  training plans  seem to know  what they do  and therefor  are not using   people as guinea pigs ?
 . In contrast    what we offer or  do , we  try, assess, reassess  try  and reassess  and look  hat happens live. Learn  from this on an individual base  and  try to improve.We  do not claim  he truth but hope  to be relative accurate   in what we  tarot.
 Again in contrast  to the calculated  zoning's, where  we  are " absolutely"  sure  what the end result will  be. So  if you  look or a  sure  end result  stick  with  what we always did  so  we do no waste  time. If  you like to  get more individual  possibilities,  physiological ideas
and try outs  may be  Tehran way  to enjoy  activity.

The goal on this  forum  and for MOXY  use is  to learn  to make interpretations of the datas  we get  from a NIRS  equipment   and that's  what we  try to focus  on.
How  to train  and use  the  feedback   is done  by  coaches  who charge  and  rain people on a  daily base, as they have all the experience  as  the  whole idea of a  training is  to achieve new physiological levels  of  performance which than may  Slater in a better overall performance. 
  Thanks again great  critical feedback  and  hopefully  a  decent critical responds.

CraigMahony

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 #4 
Completely agree with you ryinc!

I am in the situation where one of my athletes when walking has an SmO2 of about 80% but as soon as he starts jogging in his warm up, even going really slowly, he desaturates down to about 30% therefore I seems to have a delivery problem.
His father had a heart attack earlier this year and this week had another check up as he was not feeling well. The father was told that he had narrow arteries and that it was genetic. Therefore my athlete probably has it as well. So I am now trying to work out the best way to improve this. My understanding is that it will take a fairly large volume of low intensity work to improve his capillary bed. I have been looking for any alternative methods that make also help. So any information on how to improve delivery would be helpful.
ryinc

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 #5 
Craig one thought, perhaps one way to test your hypothesis would be to try get a Moxy on the father and see whether you see the same reaction.
CraigMahony

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 #6 
I would like to ryinc. However, he has stopped being active for the moment as 2 days after an easy run he would not feel very well. 
juergfeldmann

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 #7 
Rync / Craig
  Thanks  thanks   for  this  great feedback  and I  absolutely agree  even though I look it  at  this issue  from a very different  point of  view  due  to the fact  that I am very blinded  with   what I am looking  for  and  very often  very biased. So  that  does not mean I am  right, it is  just my years  of  working on this   often in a very small group  and most  with one  single target  , offering the  best or better  the   most  advanced ideas in my small community I  can   try to offer, which still means there is a lot  of  space  for improvement.

 I  love  Craig's  feedback

His father had a heart attack earlier this year and this week had another check up as he was not feeling well.

 This  is  where I  try  ( not always  succeed)  to make the fundamental difference between individual  physiological  assessments    and  than  physiological guided   activities  (  or some would name it training)
The   mental pressure in your case is  often a big challenge  to  actually  move  forward  and look at this  from a positive point of  view. You know the limiter and now you can  try to target  this  forma  very  nice   information point of  view So  yes  performance is a  part but  targeted   stimulation is  the next part.

The  questions   are   an important  part.
  If  we have a delivery limitation    than  does it make  sense if  I  increase the vascularisation and therefore the  mitochondria  density in the extremity  muscles.
 Question of the sleeping Giant. I  increase the  vascular bed and therefor  the ability  to  use more O2    for activities,  doers this help  the delivery system, when in fact  the  heart attack happened  where. )


I  am in a  discussion here    with a  local  doctor  and a  long  time patient of mine.

I  client  86  years  old  who works  out  since many years 3  x  a week in my  clinic.
We  do or did an assessment   and  we had  some  delivery limitation indicating a possible   cardiac  limiter.  He  still  can go  nicely  high with his  HR  170+-  but he  has  a  relative  small SV.
 Resting HR  70 +-  SV   resting  70 +- ml
So  he had  is  yearly  check up  as well  and  in his 
 Bruce protocol . He   was loaded  to  220 -  age !!!
 On the  question  there how he  feels  he    told  the tester  that he  feels  that the load  is very easy ( 135 )  HR  and that he  can go much faster.

But the  rule is  to  stop by 220 -  age. So  the tester  asked   the client   what HR he  than  has or  can see if  he  walks  the hill with his  dogs.
  Answer  170 +-

Result . He ended up  with  Beta blocker

Result   now . He   feels very  dizzy  and  has  BP  problem when ever he  stands  up  fast  or  is doing some normal  walks.

His  resting  HR  now  is  50 -  His  SV  is  slightly lower  due  to   pre load  and his  EF %  dropped  from  65 %  towards  50 +-

His  CO  before betablocker  was   5 L / min +-  now  you can calculate  it is  50 x  65 in the best case  so  3l/min +

Result is  what we  have.
 So   the next  few  days and week s   will eb some  work  to  do some   controlled  but  sensitive talks.

The NIRS  results  show  nicely  the problem now on delivery and  the best  results  are seen in non priority muscles  with a very early  vasoconstriction during  a  1 min or any rest. If  this  is too slow  he  feels  dizzy  for a  few moments.

Result . we  can not use  and performance  information now  and have to  use  for the moment  physiological feedback.



 So  when I am talking about individual assessments  and than  training guidance, than this case or many daily cases are n my mind  as  we see now  the case in Craigs  specific  story.  So  the question  is . Can I  take  the cook book  of performance and %  and believe  it works    so that I  do not feel this athlete is a guinea  pig . or  can I  do more in depth  regular assessments   with some targeted ideas on  what we may have to try to improve respectively have to avoid.
 Do we  take the genetic  stamp  as   that, so nothing I  can do , or  do we sit  down  with the athlete and the  cardiac  specialist  from his  dad  to look at the different options  now   starting  from non medicated  stimulation  to  nutritional  interventions    and so on.  What is here the   first  goal  for me .  
 1 long term health  versus sport   or  athletic  records.
 Can we  do both  yes. does it need  time  and try outs. Yes. Is it worth while   for sure. 
ryinc

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 #8 
Juerg, great story.

Two aspects of feedback on your earlier response.

1 - I disagree that this forum is only about NIRS data interpretation, at least half the threads go into.topics way beyond data iinterpretation and many of.the topics that are focussed on data interpretation dont actually provide clear interpretations they are more discussion! Consider the original poat in this thread - it is an indirect commentary of training methods or lack of training methods not nirs data interpretations. The coaches that help athletes to dope.know that the athlete has a limitation thats why they know doping will work. What they dont know is a different more appropriate method of training.

2. I think you have already convinced most readers on the forum here, the value of looking at assessments and training at a physiological and idividual level. The question/barrier many of us have is is "ok we are convinced it makes sense but what next we simply don't know?". I have accepted that i am not going to get training ideas or interpretations on the Forum - i respect your position on this, i am not trying to change it. My question is where/how does a coach with good intentions to give their client good value and personalised service develop themselves to learn what they need to do it if we.know that this forum is not the place to do it? It wont happen by magic. Experimentation might work but then it needs to be narrow targeted experimentation. I think many of us don't even know how to narrow or target our experimentation at this point.

The SV example was useful thank you, but it is somewhat impractical given most people do not have access to a physioflow but at least this something tangible.to work with.

Cheers
Ryan

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