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ryinc

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 #31 
THb data looks interesting - there seems to drop on recovery, and then increase as the load begins. The drop is more pronounced in the left leg (which was at 6 o clock position) and at harder loads. The spike up, on the commencement of the load seems more pronounced at earlier loads.

Is this perhaps venous blood momentarily coming back into the muscle when the load starts on the left leg? Which would also perhaps explain why it doesn't happen on the harder loads because a stronger compression of the muscle would not allow such a reaction presumably?

The drops in the later loads seem to occur on both left leg and deltoid - which suggest it might be systemic in nature, but i am a bit confused why they would occur at the early loads then.

During the load, the left leg shows an increasing tHb reaction whereas the right leg is flat
ryinc

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 #32 
Stuart sent me the original file from his world's race - unfortunately the file does not seem to work in any application other than Garmin Connect, so will have to make do with the garmin connect graphs

Here close ups of the three parts of the ride Juerg circled with increasing THb, now with heart rate, power, Sm02 and tHB. Keep in mind the scales of the graphs here are less pronounced than what was originally posted

First circle
First Circle.jpg  Second circle Juerg highlighted


Second Circle.jpg 

Last circle (last climb) 
Third circle.jpg 
In the first circle, there are definitely sections where HR is falling but tHB is still increasing (look at 2:38:20) Sm02 also increases during some of the loads. At about 2:42 there is a drop in tHb but sm02 drops too.


In the area relating to the second circle. Again overall HR is coming down at some points even though tHB is still rising. Within the load tHb generally seems to rise when the power drops (with the one exception of the last little spike in power where there does seem to be a drop in tHb on the release of the load).

In the last section Juerg highlighted. HR is very very stable. There is a hint of tHB dropping on release of power at the end but it is small. Sm02 again seems to be flat, actually decreases on the release of the load.

Conclusion - its still not clear to me. Maybe there might be some respiratory related reactions (mostly looking at Sm02), possibly combined with some level of occlusion reactions which make this more difficult situation to interpret?


mary ann

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 #33 
Ryan , Stuart just sitting here in California  on  an airport  but will be back later to  start a much closer look at the datas  from  Starts athlete  with the interesting tHb.
 It will be a great  chance to show why we  do not use a cook book and  as well  why a 5/1/5 
is really a cook book but
Once  you are a chef  you will see, that already after the first  2 or 3 rests you  can start to play  and look for possible reasons.
Example in the  tHb discussion
 The right leg seems  to always drop tHb at rest, where as we would expect normally  that after  you stop  biking you release  muscle tension and  keep the lag reaction of CO  and VE  so  SmO2  will increase  and tHb  will increase. Not the  case in a Alans  graph ??? So on his left leg we ave one  "normal " tHb spike  than its  gone  as well.
In his  right   leg graph  always a  drop in the one min rest. So once you  can let go  from a protocol  and relax as t is an assessment and not a test you could have   tried out some ideas after  the  first double load  of  wattage  so  play with leg position ( pedal positions ).
Example  . After the second 1 min rest tHb drops on his right leg so search for an answer.
Bike  for a few minutes same load   now stop the same way  if again a drop in tHb change the position of his  leg into the opposite  and see what happens.
Example. In case the right side was  at 1 o clock  so left leg  at 7 o clock
 Than gravity  would   drop the right leg  so the left leg has to hold against
 Now correct this if  that would be the case adn watch live the reaction of tHb. And so on.
Isometric contractions need a much smaller    % of max load than dynamic.

 30 % +- of max isometric load creates a venous  occlusion so 15 - 20 % of max isometric load will crate strong compression.

50 % +-  dynamic  cycling  action  fo maximal dynamic strength  will crate a venous occlusion   and 30 +-  %  will create a  string compression. Now in Alan s  case we still have a good SmO2 reaction in the  rest so he reloads, but e may not  relax.


Is this perhaps venous blood momentarily coming back into the muscle when the load starts on the left leg?

Not sure about that statement. Venous blood  can  sit  or be pooled  in the   leg after the O2 exchange  but   normally it will be push  towards the heart  due to muscle pump  for example  so it  should not move   towards the muscle  at all if  the  valves  are  normally function. So when the load starts  you acutely have the opposite The muscle contraction will be a part of the muscle pump squeezing potentially pooled venous blood towards the heart  and tHb  will drop  or at least HHb  will drop as we had in the inversion table example  or in Bobbys  Yoga posing with gravity. More later  as  soon I am  at home.

ryinc

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 #34 
Juerg have you changed your name to Mary Ann???????

Happy to accept that my statement regarding venous return does not make sense physiologically. Given there is not a file with wattage, and moxy neatly time-synched it is a little tricky, but to me what we seem to be seeing is that there is a drop on tHB during recovery, then at the start of the next load, tHB actually spikes up (not falls as would be expected and in line with your explanation of muscle pump). Perhaps I am wrong and that is not what we see. So first do you agree that is what we see (particularly on left leg, but also to some extent on right leg)? Then if we agree on that what could the physiological reasons be for this trend? Opposite of a blood pressure protection reaction? Simply release of muscle tension that might have occurred during the recovery? Something else?

juergfeldmann

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 #35 
Haha    yes I changed  the name as I had  Mary Anns  computer in Santa Anna  to work with  so  yes nobody as a swenglish like me .  As  to your  respond I have to read  it again  above . The only  answer or  thought I had here is the  venous  back flow in a healthy  system  as it is  most likely not the case.
. There is a fun reaction  when you look carefully in a start of a  load , where you see  often a tHb  drop  due to    muscle compression  and   sometimes  you see  at the same time a  SmO2 increase   at that stage. So it looks based on SmO2  as  there is NO   immediate  use  of O2 . ( SmO2  goes  up  but  ???)
But   think through  why SmO2  may go up  when you  sit  for 5 min a  calibration on a bike than you start an assessment or test.
 Think Bobby's  Yoga    information. So  tHb drops and SmO2  goes  a little bit up. What happens here. ?
juergfeldmann

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 #36 
From far back   feedback  form Ryan
What i will say though is that the starting load was perhaps high (even for someone as strong as what you are) and the the assessment might have benefited from slightly smaller gaps between loads to get slightly more granular data (i think something like 100w, 150w, 200w, 250w, 300w, 350w) might have been ideal for you - just a thought. It would obviously have been a bigger time commitment.

Yes  a perfect  feedback  and yes  the  way we  go. It is a bigger time commitment  . No not at all it  is a physiological feedback workout  where you learn a lot  as you go and it is  1  hour  only. You even could do I  each load 3  times  and in each load  you have  physiological goal  and see how long you can maintain that goal  without  seeing an  extreme reaction  in  your body or  live in MOXY. Example  of changing  physical   parameters. a  first  100 watts  you  bike  normal RPM  like  leys  say 85 +-  than next you  go  30  below  and the next  30 above  and look how long  in wattage  you can do that  with  increase in 50 wattage  and look what changes in  HR  and SmO2 values. and tHb
 You could go   on top of handle bars  and in aero position  for  3  each 5 min same load  and see, what happens.
You could stop in 12 3 6  9  o clock position  and see what happens. You could go  at the  1 min rets in extreme aero  position and see what happens.
You  could go out of cleats so you can not pull and go on cleats  and  observe  by  what performance you see a  big difference.
You  could go hypocapnic normocapnic  and hyper capnic  and see how long you can do it  and by  what performance  you simply can not play  with respiration anymore 
 And so on.
 Bigger  time commitment . I hear this all the time  when we  talc about length of an assessment.
 It is  not  a test it is a physiological observed  workout  with specific goals  and can be done daily  for calibration as we do in the warm up.
How long do we have  for a VO2 max test  12 + min  a LT  test with 8 3 min steps  ???
 So we  give an athlete  where  we hope  and believe  he  may have to train 100 plus  hours  easy a month  30 min time  to find  a training zoning based on mathematical  formulas  so we invest 30 min in a  physiological manipulate step test  to   argue  that the athlete  has to train so many hours. Hmm  seems to me  an out of balance approach really. Actually we often even not test we use  old FTP  and CP results  to calculate  current fatigue  scores ?????
ryinc

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 #37 
Juerg thats about 50 different options and all are interesting but need.multiple assessments. Which ones would be the one or two that you would have applied in real time in Alan's case after first 3 loads when you saw unusual reaction and why?
juergfeldmann

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 #38 
Yes  that will be  the fun  part and I may use  actually Stuarts  own datas  from his  5/1/5  do make  a case.
 Here  just to keep  you all on their feet.
 Stuarts  5/1/5  most likely shows  a  cardiac limitation in that  ya  with a  blood shift  form his delta  down into his legs  due to a cardiac out put limitation. 

So  I will use  his VO2   malformation as well o   try to   back up  my blunt statement   here. BUT   again I will involve  the readers  bairn  and hope  for some  feedback on questions I will throw out  who go  through my mind.
 Stuart  I need if possible your  respiratory frequency  form this 5/1/5  and if possible  a  re assessment of the following loads  as a warm up. 150 watts  1 min rest  150  watts  1 min rest 200  watt 1 min rest 200 watt 1 min rest just  MOXY feedback  ffrom one leg  and if possible  delta pars  acromialis.  or  just  a  workout you o  where you have a MOXY on a leg  and you push +-  1500 watts  for 4  - 8 min and thna make a break  for 1 min  than go again and  make a second break.


 First  question.
 a) if  there  could be  cardiac limitation so limitation of  CO   and we  still push harder  and the legs  could  utilize still more O2   than we  wold see a  blood shift  om arms to  legs  or a O  shift.
 Now if we have  this CO limitation  what woudl we  expect to see  as  the hearts  ability to  deliver  O2  per beat.  Normally  with  each beat  we  deliver in a step test or increase in load  more  O2  per beat. 
 

juergfeldmann

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 #39 
Back on Ryans question as it is a great one.
 Which ones would be the one or two that you would have applied in real time

1. tHb reaction in the one min rest period . This  can easy be done in any daily  ride  on the road. You bike a  fixed controlled load  +- lets say 150 watts  and  after 8  +  minutes you may have a road section you can coast  as it is flat  or  slightly downhill so you have a break  or a certain time   1 min plus  and now you ooo at thB. You need  to now   perhaps how  your   MOXY leg reacts  if it is  at 6  or  12  o clock  form   a  bike assessment. If not you can try it out  as you go.
  . Or  you can have a MOXY of a non priority muscle and look what happens there in tHb.
 Now look at Stuarts  example as well in his  tHb reactions.
  I have about  30 graphs  now from Stuarts  datas  and will slowly show them here  with open thinking  and  possible mistakes  and  corrections as we go  a long. 


So  tHb 2 option  to make it simple.
   drop of tHb  in the one minute rest
 
a) mechanical compression (  position , not optimal relaxed   muscle , gravity  a.s.o
 b )   systemic  feedback like BP  protection  over BP  control so  systemic vasoconstriction  which can, depending on the risk  of BP  be in arms  and  okay in legs  or  in both areas.
 In priority muscles  the BP  will move toegtehr with  muscle activity . In the  non priority muscle  we will see a tHb  drop delay for BP  protection.  Now in both cases like Stuart  and Allan. simple fast  answer . Go out  ride  and stop motions   and see, whether we have an expected  tHb reaction now  or  still not  and than if not play with positions on the pedal  situation. 

Stuart percival

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 #40 
Hi juerg,Ryan and all
I ve been away for a few days!!
Let me read all this and digest

Thank you for all your help and no problem with the data ! I will hit the lab again next week as I see juerg wants more !!
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