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CraigMahony

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 #16 
I would have said that the circles represent a venous occlusion as just after the circles the tHb drops when the the SmO2 increased. In the middle one this is most obvious. The heart rate also goes up during these sections. So to me it looks like increased blood flow in but reduced blood flow out. So possibly an uphill section of the race?
juergfeldmann

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 #17 
You guys  are great  and that's  what I  mean as a physiological discussion.  The idea of Craig  was  may  immediate  idea as well of a  venous occlusion trend but  I need to have the csv  to  really see it close  at the end  .  Now  this  will  move  than into a physiological training  planning and I will use Craig's  example  in the next  few days  for further discussions.
. In the past  but correct me in case  you   think this different , we  simply used performance of any kind  like speed, wattage  or  others   to  explain  how  a  workout  or race was.
 In many  Pro  post  race interviews they  often  say . (  I had  no legs  to day or  I had  good legs..
 That is  what we often discuss ,   why  you have good legs  or bad legs    equal question of Limiter  In  the RR  example we have all this great graphs  of  performance. So please help  what you really can see  on possible reasons  why the  race  went  as it was , what may have caused  the inability  to stay in a  draft  or to  hold a certain wattage  up a hill and so on.
 Now  the same will apply later once  you are familiar  with physiological training ideas. The  goal is   to have a  target physiological  idea like coordination  or intramuscular  coordination or   respiratory   system stimulation or  a mix, but always  aware  of what  we try to  target  and what  actually happended
 In Craig's  Track and field example    the interesting rest  situation after the 2 nd  150 m  run shows an orthostatic  reaction    after the  run   in sitting and standing, where  gravity   moved    or    kept  venous blood in the legs  so we had a  lot   more HHb there  so the  tHb increase is   due  to this pooling  and  when we  take HR into that equation, we can see that the  high tHb  and the   dropping SmO2  has to be carefully assessed before  we argue  no recovery or  bad recovery. What we know is  that there was  a  weak   blood flow return either planned  as an additional stimulus  or  unplanned  and  not recognized  . Now here is  where  you either use  this  "weakness"  for additional stimulation or it  simply happens  without the coaches being aware  of it. 
I have  a client  with this problem  and she works in a  emergency  work  profession so it is very  limiting  for her  to keep her  job. So we actually use  this weakness now   and add additional pooling to it  with  BFR  to  actually  try to stimulate a  correctional reaction   in her  and now  after 4 weeks it actually starts  to  work  and we have much less black outs   and will get this under control.
 In this runners  case it  could be a due to  lack of muscle pump  and possible respiratory   weak diaphragm reaction.  (  has to be assessed, whether the girl  breathes  heavy  apical or basal  after a run like that. ( easy to  do by  fixing a MOXY intercostal  and  on sternoclaidomastoideus or simple observation if  you are  there  or  with a  BIO harness breathing  wave quality. by having one belt  o below sternum  and one    on chest level..
. The  pooling means  that we have a high chance of a  drop in SV  . Now  again here  the HR  can have some feedback.
 A orthostatic  reaction can show a  drop in SV. If  the HR  does not stay high you  will feel dizzy  due to  drop in  BP. If  the HR  stays  high  you try to correct  the BP  this way.
 So interesting to  compare  situation  on HR and tHb and SmO2  combination  in this cases.
 More later. Have a great  day  and thanks  for the very interesting feedbacks  from all of you.
ryinc

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 #18 
I would have said that the circles represent a venous occlusion as just after the circles the tHb drops when the the SmO2 increased. In the middle one this is most obvious. The heart rate also goes up during these sections. So to me it looks like increased blood flow in but reduced blood flow out. So possibly an uphill section of the race?

The idea of Craig  was  my  immediate  idea as well of a  venous occlusion trend but  I need to have the csv  to  really see it close  at the end .

The reason i thought it was not a venous occlusion was because Sm02 is increasing during the period when tHb is increasing? Also in the first and second circles to me on the zoomed out picture it looks as though HR actually drops off its peak, while tHb is still increasing at that those points?  I agree it will be interesting when we have the CSV file to zoom in to see this more closely.
juergfeldmann

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 #19 
ryinc  you are  completely  right. If  it is , but   yes most likely not an occlusion.    as you where looking much  more  critical and integrated  SmO2  as I  just  fast  moved over  HR  and tHb. Perfectly pointed  out  tHb  up     could mean "occlusion" but  than we would have to see a clear  drop  after  the  load  so closer look , but still in a  occlusion trend   with this high HR  we would  clearly  expect a  drop in SmO2.
So   to think through : If   respiration limitation    or  hypercapnia in this section ???
 if  respiratory  compensation and   normo  or  trend  towards  hypocapnia ???

If  change in pedal technique like out of the seat  or  other  handle bar position  we  introduce a different leg  inter muscular  coordination. So  question to Stuart, in this  three sections  do you remember a  very specific  position on the bike  or  different RPM than  in  most of the other sections ?

 tHb up but though HR actually drops off its peak, while tHb is still increasing at that those points?

I did not looked  at   this  so close but here  the interesting thought son this.
or better as usual questions.
  Drop in HR  could mean ?
  so  that would as well mean  what  for muscular  contraction  situation?

 so  that will be fun  to blow  up very  close  and look at  HHb and  O2Hb. What  could we  possibly  expect. This is just loud  thinking  how I approach this ideas  and information's. Perhaps  it helps   to   get in the  physiological  thinking mode. Ask  first  who  is doing what before asking  what is  the  physical performance  afterwards.
Stuart percival

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 #20 
As promised CSV file- Bit busy this morning so I will return later with some graphs/ input
Thanks guys 

 
Attached Files
csv world_RR_Perth.csv (327.37 KB, 11 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #21 
Thanks  so much  for sharing this  will be a fun  week3dn project  to  look though this datas   closer. as well will add  some VO2  and  other   NIRS feedback  from Stuart   on this  thread.
Stuart percival

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 #22 
As promised my 5 1 5 lab test
little fatigued after nights and 4 hour ride yesterday.
3 files from peripedal and 1 from CPET machine.


 
Attached Files
csv Staurt_test_12.09.16.csv (54.90 KB, 18 views)
csv STU_5-1-5_LRF.csv (200.12 KB, 9 views)
csv Stu_515_deltoid.csv (200.07 KB, 10 views)
csv Stu_515_RRF.csv (210.24 KB, 8 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #23 
In your  VO2   datas    do  you have as well RF ( respiratory frequency  or  TV  as I  only  can see  VE on there ?
Stuart percival

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 #24 
Ahh!! I knew I would forget something!
Tomorrow ill upload that

I did spirometry too so ill upload that

sorry forgot
Stuart percival

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 #25 
Here are charts from RRF - not as polished as the more experienced on here apologies.

I repeated without HR as I am used to seeing Sm02 and tHB closer together and the scale separated them somewhat.

some additional info:
The test went ok but in the last 2 intervals I was really sweating and to be honest I mentally rather than physically gave up on the last 1. I think I could have started the next step up albeit I would not have done 5 min. I did a night shift last night so not ideal preparation.

Next I will attempt to analyse

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: 515_RRF.png, Views: 9, Size: 315.79 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: 515_RRF_.png, Views: 10, Size: 181.74 KB 

ryinc

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 #26 
Hi Stuart

Thanks for sharing this data - we rarely get to see such a complete dataset - looks like an interesting case and i am looking forward to the commentary on this and learning how the additional fields we normally don't see on the average case study are integrated. There also seem to be some interesting trends, particularly on the rest periods.

You mentioned you were fatigued - but it was not clear whether this was after the assessment or if you were already fatigued when you started the assessment? Could you just clear this up.

I assume you completely stopped pedaling at rest? If yes was there a specific foot you put in the 6 o clock position?

You mention you could have done 1 more hard load - just having a quick scan, i don't think that would have been necessary here. In the last loads there is definitely a clear decrease in Sm02 and so another harder load i don't think would have added much value to the assessment. As Juerg would remind you,  the idea here is not a performance test, it is a physiological assessment. What i will say though is that the starting load was perhaps high (even for someone as strong as what you are) and the the assessment might have benefited from slightly smaller gaps between loads to get slightly more granular data (i think something like 100w, 150w, 200w, 250w, 300w, 350w) might have been ideal for you - just a thought. It would obviously have been a bigger time commitment.

Thanks
Ryan
Stuart percival

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 #27 
Thanks for sharing this data - we rarely get to see such a complete dataset - looks like an interesting case and i am looking forward to the commentary on this and learning how the additional fields we normally don't see on the average case study are integrated. There also seem to be some interesting trends, particularly on the rest periods.-Happy to share the data and I have 2 athletes that Juerg is aware of that I will upload with similar datasets, less the race file.

You mentioned you were fatigued - but it was not clear whether this was after the assessment or if you were already fatigued when you started the assessment? Could you just clear this up.- Tired in general from a nightshift so before

I assume you completely stopped pedaling at rest? If yes was there a specific foot you put in the 6 o clock position? Good point- some information on the protocol:
Right and left Rec Fem and right deltoid x 3 Moxy placements.
On each rest I kept my R leg flexed (HIP) at the 12 o clock position. Left leg was straight at 6 o clock. I tried to keep the shoulders/upper body relaxed but occasionally noticed some isometric contraction in the deltoid- I tried to keep this at a minimum but this become more difficult as intensity increased.



You mention you could have done 1 more hard load - just having a quick scan, i don't think that would have been necessary here. Yes That was another reason I stopped, I could see that sm02 was very low and Sp02 was also falling, RPE was high. I was interested to get to V02 peak though just to see all the data at that time point but as you say its not a classic 'V02 max' test [smile]
 In the last loads there is definitely a clear decrease in Sm02 and so another harder load i don't think would have added much value to the assessment. As Juerg would remind you,  the idea here is not a performance test, it is a physiological assessment. What i will say though is that the starting load was perhaps high (even for someone as strong as what you are) and the the assessment might have benefited from slightly smaller gaps between loads to get slightly more granular data (i think something like 100w, 150w, 200w, 250w, 300w, 350w) might have been ideal for you - just a thought. It would obviously have been a bigger time commitment.- I actually used Juergs protocol [smile]

Thanks
juergfeldmann

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 #28 
Ryinc
 Thanks  for  your   feedback here and it is perfect.
 Summary. We  do NOT test we assess  so  all out   end loads  are not needed  nor  do they add anything  special  to the feedback.
 In fact in many countries  all out VO2  max test  are only allowed  if there is a medical staff there  due to  obvious reasons.  Having VO2  datas  makes  the  discussion super fun  as  this a great  additional  feedback    from indirect data.
 I will " confuse " in the next session  some  VO2    users  and hope  for a fun discussion.
 Next  than will be to have as  well  cardiac   feedback  from Physio users  and   perhaps  Bio harness feedback on respiratory  quality  as we showed  in many cases   10 years back on the fact forum  so  will be a    review  here  again. And  old  story  the   dynamic  of lactate in a  different   view  than  forced  3  min classical step test.    And yes   we rather start  far too slow  than too high  as we  can use  the slow 2  or  3  double steps  for much more info , than the  high intensity steps , where we  may already reach a limiter and start to compensate.

ryinc

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 #29 
Stuart, any chance that you can export the garmin file of the RR race in ".fit" format, so that we have all the Sm02, THb, heart rate and power date time synched - otherwise very difficult to draw any firm conclusions. If you want i can then convert it into a csv file and repost it here for everybody else's benefit.

Here are instructions on how to do that on Garmin connect.

https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216917807-Exporting-files-from-Garmin-Connect
ryinc

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 #30 
Here are the graphs from the 5-1-5
HR.png  Sm02 comparison.png  THb comparison.png 

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