Sign up Latest Topics

  Author   Comment  

Posts: 263
We recently did a 5-1-5 test on the bike with Dennis Mohagen from  Juerg put together the attached discussion of the test results and Dennis has agreed to allow us to share and further discuss the results to kick off the Triathlon section of our Forum.

pptx Short start intro to MOXY ideas.pptx     

More to come.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Thank you very much  for  offering us  to start  a discussion on your sport on this forum.

  For  us a  discussion means to  ask uncomfortable  questions on what we  do  currently  and what  could be done  to improve  what we  currently do.

 So many  questions  will be answered  by adding  a new  question.( often because  we have no  answer  either )

We  would like to show  how  we believe MOXY  can be a  very nice additional  or  even new  tool  in  your  coaching attempt to improve the individual programming   and  try to move  one step further away from using calculators  and %  from  a test result    to  a  physiological assessment tool  which can be used  not just for assessments  but for many more ideas in any activities  and here in  specific in an endurance sport.
 Here  to start out  where and how we   suggest MOXY  can be used in your sport.

 1. As a stand  alone or  additional tool during  any existing  or new  endurance  assessment.
      You will see in our case study  more on this.

- If  you use  a VO2  max idea  add MOXY  to it  and  see, what opens more questions  and what  actually may answer  some    long standing questions.

- if you use  a noninvasive  cardiac  heamodynamic  equipment ,  than as well add MOXY  to it.

- if you use for any of your three disciplines a  Conconi  like test , do the same , add  to the simple HR idea  a  MOXY feedback and see  what the  direct feedback may  reveal  or may  answer or  in many   situation may  open a  discussion due to conflict on  what we learned  to what we see.

- If you do a  lactate test  and use  any of the current  " accepted " 25  different options  to   find   your LT   again add a  MOXY  to the   data collection.

- if you use  respiration and some newer  tools like bio harness or Hexo skin  or others who use  VE  as a  way  of  finding  LT or better VT  again add MOXY  to it.

- If you do a more performance  based  assessment , whether it is a  12 min  test  a  5 km run a FTP  20  or FTP  60  load  add MOXY  to it  and again  first simply learn to accept , that  NIRS  can give you many different feed backs.
 If you are  completely  new  and like to offer  for your triathlete  an option  for physiological testing    than perhaps   as well consider   the MOXY. .
 In fact  optimal physiological feed backs  for assessment  can be  achieved  by using more   than 1 MOXY as you will see during our discussions.

2. We use MOXY  during  workouts  to  guide   intensities .
 we use MOXY  for  adjustment of  sport specific  positions in your case  bike fitting.
 We use MOXY  to guide strength workouts

 But main  reason  to  use  MOXY is  to   a)  find out what is your sport specific limitation  from a physiological point of view.  Than  you can use this information to  plan your workouts  accordingly. 

So let's  jump into the absolutely basic  ( therefor limited  feedback)  option  when you start  with MOXY.. The assessment  can be  done in all three disciplines  in a lab or in the field. It is only a  question of  how  you organize  it.. Here we  use a  case study   on a bike. .
 First. This is the  more complex  version.  Fir starters  I would do a  very simple  5 min step test .
 Here  the case  we  may   stay and discuss.

zoning delta hr smo2.jpg

Te above  assessment is    with a MOXY placed on the delta  pars  acromialis.  , a very little  or non involved muscle in cycling.
 The test  was  with  2  x  the same load  > So example  100 watt  for  5 min followed by a  complete  stop   for 1 min  followed by a repeat  of  100 watt for  5 min . Than 1  min stop again and now  new load  of  for example 140 watt for  5 min  1 min rest  5 min 140    and so on.
 There are  different reasons  why we choose this protocol. To make it easier to start we  show you a  5 min step test  below.
zoning based on SmO2 trend.jpg

The  difference in this two ideas is the   deference in what you like to achieve  with an assessment.
 If  you simply  like to create a  individual " zoning" idea  than  the  5min step test is  the way to go.
 If you like to know  , what may limit  your clients or  your ability to improve performance  further  than you may like to choose the more complex  version of  an assessment.. Any thing is possible.
  If you like to add some additional  feedback  for example on right left  symmetry in  biking or  any  of your disciplines  you add 2  moxys  so one on the right and one on the left  side.  Here  an example in  our  case of left and right leg result   just  form SmO2 trend info. Look just the SmO2 trend  and forget  for the moment  additional lines  and   zoning's  just compare  in this case the trend in  left and right leg  during the   steps.
smo2 all r  and L VL plus  zoning.jpg

So before we  go any further let's  see, whether we  have some specific  triathlon  forum users   who like to guide this  discussion towards  their  specific interests.


Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 65
 Nice introduction Juerg. I hope this post is not taking us off course, but considering triathlon I think many of us have realized the dilemma I am going to present. Triathlon is a great sport due to its multidimensional approach, however this also makes it more difficult to train for, to monitor, and to test (I think....). I will try to present this case and some ideas about practical implications as a result of this case. I will present one example, but this has been documented in numerous studies, and I have dozens of more examples. 

This is the same individual completing the binary step protocol Juerg explained earlier, one time during a running assessment and one time during a biking assessment. In order to compare these two assessment you have three charts below. As you can see there are some substantial physiological difference between biking and running. The question then is, if I do a cycling assessment can I use it to fine tune my running training as well? Clearly, this is in many cases (as below) not the case. Differences in VO2, HR, and in the case of Moxy SmO2 indicate trying to determine training zones that will transfer between sports is not a reliable option, and this is important to recognize for triathletes. If I am going to do performance diagnostics I better spend the time (and often money) to do assessments in the different sport types specifically. Do we agree?

Now if we concede the point above that obviously a different sport has a different physiological reaction and therefore require different training zones, we have also identified a very important point where we hope (again as Juerg mentions above) the Moxy can identify individual limitation. To make sure that I do not run ahead of myself, if we have different assessment results due to different physiological responses to different sport types, the question is why are the responses difference. In the example below running has a higher VO2max when compared to cycling....why? HR is different why? SmO2 is different why? How are they related? What is tHb doing? All these differences are responses to stimuli, and considering a relative maximal effort they are maximum effort responses to create performance. Since performance in not higher, both assessments assume an individual limitation in performance for the given sport type, but show different physiological responses that leads to this limitation. In simple terms, different sports will have different physiological limitations within the same individual. 

Considering this argument how should one train for triathlon?


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
I got  some  emails  from Triathlon coaches  after the above  graph  from Andri. indicating, that  as it seems  in running the tHb  is lower than in biking   due to the eccentric  workload  and therefor a higher  muscle tension.
 That is the risk  of a cook book.
 Here a  Brick workout  we discuss in this  forum and look at this case here again  and look at tHb .
  1. Andri  have to help  but  I think this where 2  separate  assessments   done on different occasions.
 So not   same   MOXY  location  and  one test  immediately follow the next test.
 So very dangerous  to  compare the absolute  trend.
 In  contrast  in Sandy's  case it was done  during the same TIP  as a Brick  and here we  can see the trend in cycling  is lower  in tHb  at the same muscle compared  with running.

thb smo2  all  plus  disci.jpg


Development Team Member
Posts: 279
In addition to the cookbook remark. Also think of different bike positions esp. related to triathlon bike (time trial position) which might actually lead to different trend (and difference between running) between individuals. So I think as Juerg often mentions: mechanical factors
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Absolutely  and the bike choice  and position can be nicely used in workouts, depending what I like to make " inefficient"
 Here a   really basic  idea.
 a)  Racing  has to be  as efficient  as possible to create the best performance  with the most efficient  abilities.
 b)  training  or workouts  or as I like to name them  "stimuli"    should be designed  so they are very inefficient  so I can stimulate  with the lowest performance load  needed.. Very stupid example:
 But it  shows  it.
 If  i like  to create  an overload in my respiratory system  for inspiration and expiration I  either make  airflow  more inefficient  by only  breathing trough a  cloth or    mask, versus in a race I like to breath as free as possible.
 Or I can change  mechanic  if I like to work against resistance  form the thorax  to reduce  costo vertebral joint  motions  and Resistance  as well for diagram . In a race I like to pen this up as good as possible  and find a compromise between  aero  position and physiological relief   of air flow restriction and mechanical relief  due to positioning.
This leads  to the fun part , that I can train desaturation by doing  nothing just increasing CO2  and learn to tolerate the higher CO2. Try it with MOXY and you see the feedback.
Previous Topic | Next Topic

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter -