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danz

Development Team Member
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Posts: 4
 #1 
Hello everyone, it's been a very long time since I've posted anything and I've just started reading the forum again after a haitus...I have questions coming out all over and I am trying to rad through posts to answer them and catch up on ideas and anaylsis...I did a 5-1-5 assessment this past weekend and then after reading some of Daniele's posts did it again to try to improve the information gathering...I'm going to post the file just to see if this is even in the ballpark of being able to be interpreted...my first question is how are people moving the CSV files into graphs...I've done it via excel, but the basic graphs themselves make it difficult to interpret...not the SmO2 so much but the tHb for sure...I know that Juerg has his own program what are others doing...

Thanks in advance...

No matter what I read, I continually come back to this forum and the old fact forum as being the most interesting and thought provoking...

Here it is

 
Attached Files
csv danz.feb16.2015.tip515.90Wby30.rip.csv (79.36 KB, 18 views)

Marcel

Development Team Member
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Posts: 54
 #2 
Hey Danz
good to see you again. You need to change the way excel reads the data. At the moment you have excel reading both Smo2 and thb on the same Y axis. Right click on the thb data line, format data series and click secondary Y axis then they both will have their own scale, if need be manually choose the digits to what i should be displayed to normally around 11.5 -13.0... 

M
danz

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 4
 #3 
Alright, alright...now we're talking...thanks Marcel, and congrats on the result from last weekend...I'm still keeping track of you[wink] and it feels good to be back...so now I can produce a graph and the SmO2 looks good but there's too much with the tHb...green everywhere...going to play around with it a bit...also, with the SmO2 I would assume (but I've been wrong more times then I'm right) that we use the Live values...

So with the assessment, I alternated my moxy leg 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock positions respectively...I knew that it was more relaxed in the 12 o'clock position...also, it was extremely difficult to stay seated during the entire assessment, actually, probably the hardest part...so during the rest period I was just trying to relax my leg and unload my "area" by leaning over a bit on my non moxy leg...anyways...

Once I have a good graph I will try to analyse and think it through out loud...my initial thoughts from looking at the live data on my watch during the ride is that SmO2 continued to drop but tHb did not, at all...it went from 13.10 to 12.96 and then just stayed there, no real recovery, no upshoot nothing...so my initial feelings is a delivery issue, not utilization...but after that I'm a little stuck...I will try to get a graph going and then THINK HARDER about things...

Like I said before, great community here...

Cheers

Dan
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Great feedback. Marcel thanks. So here some pictures  from Dan  to start out.
all smo2.jpg

You can see  nice the now   5/1/5  pattern people  are  getting used  to.
 So great  assessment. Dan added  as you can  see  at the end   3  more very short loads.
 Many do that just to see, whether they can drop even lower. 
His tHb  in fact looks very   rough. Not  sure  why but it will get better  next time.
 So here the  trend in tHb
thb poly   and smo2  all.jpg

Now there are some  small changes you can try.
 You can have a  chair beside the bike on the side  you have a moxy  and rest the leg on the chair  if you have problems to relax. Next time you can make  less steps  so less long on the bike  4  to maximal 5  steps  and now you have a guide   so same start load  similar  end load  and now  you split the steps. Here  what looks like an "occlusion" is most likley a reaction of the "discomfort  in the rest  sections. It is  all through the assessment. 1  start  sections followed by middle sections  and end section  of  5 min loads.
first thb smo2.jpg 
middle load see time axis
middle  thb smo2.jpg 

last  few loads

blast  thb smo2.jpg


 very  last load close   5 min step
last step load.jpg


Now  last load  plus three hard short bursts. end  plus short bursts  thb smo2.jpg and circles.jpg 
And finally hard  burst  at the end.
high load  at  end.jpg  I added some picture  thinking sections  in it, where I would start to look what happened  in Dan's  TIP. Try  to think loud  for you  no mistakes  possible. Cheers Juerg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Okay let's look at  closer.
 .
 1. Now last load plus three hard short bursts
end  plus short bursts  thb smo2.jpg and circles.jpg

First left  red circle.
It looks like an occlusion outflow, does it? but I am not sure. If you look the next middle circle where the load  was  for sure the same but  I think it was one single heavier load, than we would assume  the same  reaction as  an occlusion outflow.
 But it  does not look  like that at all, in fact it is  more like a  contraction release but a very small one  and  at rest  ( spike  after the red  circle  line  he may in fact have released  his butt on the saddle a  very short moment or did  any fast   muscle contraction. The  slow  decrease in SmO2  after  an initial high peak  indicates, that he  did not  do nothing   in that section but  started  to  do some biking    when    perhaps even a  very low  load . Now   when he started  the  hard  short burst  you can see  what we would expect , a  drop in tHb  due to hard muscle compression.
Now here my  thoughts.
 ( Speculation. [wink] I assume  the three  hard loads where  at least the same wattage as the last in the TIP  , but most users trying out the MOXY  like to see what happens, when they  try to go really hard , so may be Dan  ( is  a normal   user)  and  pushed the three loads  much harder  than the  end load  of the TIP. He may have been surprised   that  SmO2  did not drop that much lower , despite a much harder  load. Now,  if that load was much harder we  would expect  as well an occlusion trend, but we do not see that  so  we have to go back to the start loads  and see , whether he just  did not have  yet the ability   in the one min break to really  relax.
Now back to the first left  circle. You can see just outside the circle by 5160  +- , that he started  a  new load  and  tHb increases . We would expect  a decrease  as a compression outflow , but we have  an increase  in tHb, followed by a decrease.???
 Speculation. We have , as it looks a different reaction here  compared to the higher load  in the three  bursts.??? we see the same in the middle  section as well.???
 What is different  and why ?
middle  thb smo2.jpg

Above  a  closer view  at a middle section.
  Below  a  closer view  just at the last  step highest load in TIP.
last step load.jpg

The one minute recovery after the last  highest load in TIP.

high load  at  end.jpg 

The   one high burst load  and a closer look.  The question here is :
 Did  he stopped the load at  the edge  of the yellow  zoning    at the beginning edge ( boarder )   So change in tHb  or  at the end of the yellow  zoning ( lowest point of  SmO2.


as you can see  fun ideas  and  discussions.
 Remember, that  when using NIRS  we   have to be careful not make  conclusions   based on just SmO2  or just on tHb  . We have to  watch , once we go deeper into the use  of NIRS to keep both  in connections  with each other.

There are many great  ideas and studies  out there using the  SmO2  alone  or HHb  or O2 Hb  alone.
 Than they make a conclusion based on this.
 SmO2  is a %  of  O2  in the total tHb. So  a higher SmO2  by the same  load   can mean a lot of different   ideas and it is not   always a better SmO2 level  at all. So  try , when e reading the flood  of incoming  NIRS  studies  with this in mind  before  you   read the conclusion and than see, whether you would   believe just like that the conclusion made  by the group   who did this research.

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