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juergfeldmann

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 #46 
Now  first of  all ,
 congratulation  to  this incredible great ongoing discussion. I love to see  feed backs  form Fred  ,  from Ruud  and  form Marcel  for sure. It feels great to see, that my mess  is picked  up  from  very smart people and is used  the way I always  dream about. Sometimes   we wonder as my grade  11  and 12  students do exactly this  type of  discussion why  I  can not  get it clear on here. It is  me  for sure.
.
 As a  summary   Ruud supper  short  simple feedback  and it is somewhere  with a graph I will try to find again  in the forum  SmO2  up  flat  and down.
 Marcel  Biased idea as I often show  and it is great  Golden cheetah  use this option simple fast  and easy to see.
 Marcel  great  thB  reaction explanation and for  closer look  go to the strength section where we  have many examples  on the biceps reaction. Yes tHB  up means more blood in the test area  . If CO  is the reason and you get rid of    compression tHB  shoots up  even higher or  at least  maintains level if  we reached a  capillary  b volume  limitation. If  occlusion yes it  drops  after  the load  as  an out  flow. Is there  other tools . Yes  Doppler  but you have to use the  equipment where you have the  moxy  and not  for example femoral  so it is not easy. There  are very expensive NIRS out  combined with Doppler  and the fun  part will be, that the   will soon see, that tHb  trend  would safe the  Doppler money. There are  some great studies out there looking at this  and they are somewhere in the forum as well but will search again  for  them  to show , that this is NOT  form us , we just benefit  from smart people  doing a  great job  and put it  to practical use.. Fred  great feedback  from beginners. Beginners  do not have a  explosive recruitment pattern  and you will see most often a  drop in thB  . Top athletes  will show   a  small or no drop  and thB  goes up immediately  due to blood  out flow restriction. This is a  great tool  to
a  see change in contraction quality in top athletes   when they   a kind of fatigue  and  have less  explosive contraction for in  beginner  you see that they suddenly  can  create  an occlusion trend as they improve  contraction  quality. This is supper fun to watch in rehab in  people  with ACL  problem  and I use this  trend  to  see, whether they  are ready to go back   higher sport activity   so less re injured  risk. Power alone is  a bad  back to work or sport idea  it is the physiological ability to sustain repeated  work  or  sport activity  to avoid re injures.
fitbyfred

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 #47 
Juerg, so a beginner subject will with positive adaptation move from a decreasing tHb trend to a flat or increasing trend ?
juergfeldmann

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 #48 
Yes  and no  as usual.
 If you look a single or simple  motion like a  biceps curl you do not have a lot of option to improve   strength besides  using the muscle more optimal  with  better intramuscular coordination. If you have a beginner you may  first start to improve intermuscular coordination in a complex  motion  and than secondary  you start improving intramuscular coordination.

So  the   possible progress is   improve intermuscular coordination if it is possible  and than you go to intramuscular. Hope it makes sense
DanieleM

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 #49 
Hi Juerg, regarding this:

There are  some great studies out there looking at this  and they are somewhere in the forum as well but will search again  for  them  to show , that this is NOT  form us , we just benefit  from smart people  doing a  great job  and put it  to practical use.

I have seen several studies showing oxy/deoxy trend with NIRS, but none focused on tHB, so it would be very interesting to see these studies and compared with what we see with Moxy.

Daniele
juergfeldmann

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 #50 
daniele absolutely . In the cycling world there are some great studies  out there looking  at stable HHb  or stable SmO2  and than  comparing that to FTP. And they support FTP  * not FTP  supports  the  HHb  stability. If  you   do  2  or 3   FTP  test in a row  you will see what HHb. The FTP  wattage will be the same . in the first one  you may have a  stable SmO2  and HHb in the  second  one  pushing the same FTP  you may see already a  drop in HHb  or SmO2  and in the third  one if you still can maintain FTP  same wattage   you will have a very  severe drip  but may not be able  to maintain it any  way.
 This pens  the question as usual . I s the same FTP wattage really always the same physiological  challenge  or  is the changed  physiology  which  will  decide  what  wattage you will have a balanced  metabolic   situation. I leave the answer to  FTP  users  and  ask  for a  data  sent back  of this idea including  MOXY  feedback
 Now  if  we in the first FTP load  would as well look  at  tHb  we may see  the problem slowly sneaking.
 Will show  later some of this  ideas as we tried it many times.
DanieleM

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 #51 
juerg, I was referring to the "venous occlusion" trend due to high compression force from the muscles that we have often seen in the forum. In particular for sports like cycling and running where we have contractions/relaxations at possibly high frequencies.


juergfeldmann

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 #52 
Yes another great  point  and I ill  get some examples up  form very early studies we did on pedal stroke techniques  with SEMG  with actually a  top athlete  who won  the Giro d Italy Will search  for them Nevertheless the FTP  would be  fun assessment and interesting to see  what Wattage user may take this task besides  us
Ruud_G

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 #53 
I have some stuff coming soon Juerg and Daniele [wink]
juergfeldmann

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 #54 
Thanks  to all  who contribute so generously  in the ideas we   have here . Wrong  or right crazy or smart, who cares as  this opens a  very  intriguing field in many sports. Keep it coming  and we   will get more  answers  and create  many more questions. The group of  people    whom have fun on this  home research is  exploding  and  this thanks  to  acceptable levels of  cost  now  with NIRS  and the openness  to make  mistakes  as we  learn  from them In the past  we  felt  really lonely    when  a  small group of    friends    where allowing  each other to have  open questions towards classical  educational  ideas. Now we have them all over the  world  and will hopefully stimulate    accepted   groups  to  loo  closer into this . Andri  and   the university of Bern open  now a  whole filed  in this direction so  if  we have  some specific  questions we  can sent Andri ideas  for research studies  done  at the  university.
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