Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1368929221
#1
First visit the fix studio website and enjoy. Second thanks to all to jump in and take the challenge with us. Here my thoughts and challenge to show we all can learn and make many mistakes. I took the challenge as I have only the MOXY info and nothing more and simply try to think loud. Please give feedback hard and brutal so we see where we stand with out ideas. See PP below
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1368997132
#2
here a second test ( 3 min ) from the FIX studio) Let's do the same steps and see what we have here on info just based on MOXY ( SmO2) Again a few open questions. Three points where we have this questions. The 3 points are easy to find. If the start is at the first drop than this athlete pushed at the end 240 watts. If it is at the second drop it would be 220 watt. Interesting again the second drop is again a drop down to a 200 watt level. So question to this team " Calibration in that stage". Than we have a third spot , with a peak of SmO2 up. around 140 - 160 watt. Why ? You can see this peak if there is a sudden drop in pedal pressure occurs. ( Could be when shifting gears ) or in a situation , where there is a change in Ventilation. The Fix studio team can give us more info on my speculations. Interesting the end again a rapid drop in SmO2 indicating a delivery problem. So again Physio flow info and Respiratory info paired with tHb would give an answer here. Next job for this team. 5/1/5 with loads of 100 watt/ 140/180/220. Look why we would take this idea for an individual Assessment protocol
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kalemkiarian
Study Participant
Registered:1368129505 Posts: 4
Posted 1370284006
#3
Hi Juerg, I have placed all our test data in the DropBox, including body weight, heart rate, RPE and lactate draws. Heart Rate, RPE and SMO2 are all manually written down 2 minutes and 30 seconds into each stage. Lacate draws were taken 2 min and 45 seconds into each stage. The CompuTrainer Lab is calibrated prior to each test between 2.00 - 2.50. Each athlete also has a power meter (PowerTap, Quarq or SRM) on their bike so we can compare if there are any differences. Our athletes compete at amateur and professional levels and all utilize a power meter during training and racing. We use the power data to analyze many different factors, including functional threshold power. Thanks, Levon Kalemkiarian
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370291255
#4
Thanks great news and I will take a closer look as it will be very fascinating to see Lactate and SmO2 as they have very different properties. Do you have as well respiratory and cardiac infos : Plus do you have the FTP wattage of the athletes you tested. Last but not least if you can give a critical review on my speculation I made based on only SmO2 infor from the first 2 tests you sent us that would be great , as well as if you can start 5/1/5 tests in the same clients to see the different reactions. One more thing. As all your clients have power meter and are very familiar with FTP can they do a FTP but take all 10 min a lactate sample as well live info on SmO2 by pushing on their latest FTP test result. Question . Is a fixed wattage really a fixed physiological intensity ? P is it just a fixed physical unit ?
kalemkiarian
Study Participant
Registered:1368129505 Posts: 4
Posted 1370296255
#5
The athletes are well trained and can control their wattage, so the wattage is not fixed. The athletes have to actually pedal and sustain the wattage. Each stage is analyzed to ensure the correct wattage. Unfortunately we do not have respiratory and Cardiac info (besides heart rate). Speculation questions: Each athlete is instructed to maintain seated during the entire duration of the test, however sometimes they will accelerate up and down on the saddle. Another aspect to consider is the athletes ability to focus during the test. Once focus is lost and wattage drops and they are reminded to stay focused and therefore over accelerate their wattage and then bring it back down to the recommended wattage. When asked to increase wattage to the next stage (+20 watts) there is also an over acceleration during this period, therefore seeing a spike in SmO2 and then a steady state. The test graph posted identify's the test beginning around #2. The athlete went to a maximum of 280 watts. This athlete has the ability to sustain 225 watts for 1 hour, however it was speculated to be around 240 - 260? Test 1 - FTP = 210 watts Test 2 - FTP = 180 watts Test 3 - FTP = 225 watts Test 4 - FTP = 230 watts
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370299705
#6
Thanks so much will go into the drop box and look at more carefully how my earlier speculation look with real information. Thanks for the great info and thanks for sharing the info with us.
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370358016
#7
Kalem , need you help. Can you give a look at the first 2 "speculation" I made and tell me the names on the drop box of the 2 athletes. I like than to go back and use SmO2 and lactate as questions to the classical way we do testing to start some critical questions on SmO2 and lactate. Thanks so much. 2 in your excel sheet from you great tests you had the classical 3 min step tests. So we have a HR a lactate value and a SmO2 value. How did you decided on the values. A0 are they averages over the 3 min step length . b averages over the last min in the step or last reading at the moment of blood sampling. What ever you took what is the reasoning be3hind. ? Thanks.
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370376254
#8
Short question for Kalem. First I will use your great info from the study testing to show some very very intriguing trends you created with the study protocol to show the difference in SmO2 info versus lactate info. Here first the question. The FTP you had on the top. FTP 180 belongs to S ? FTP 220 belongs to ST ? FTP 225 belongs to R ? FTP 230 belongs to T ? If yes just confirm or correct if possible.
kalemkiarian
Study Participant
Registered:1368129505 Posts: 4
Posted 1370377638
#9
Test #1 - Stacy FTP = 210 watts Test #2 - Susan FTP = 180 watts Test #3 - Rob FTP = 225 watts Test #4 - Terra FTP = 230 watts
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370449809
#10
Kalem , thanks so much. First of all, I can't say more than woww great great work. The Fix Studio joint our Study group very late in the game but is already far ahead of many others with data collections and information's. I will show this evening one of the biog challenges with Physiological testing using this data's from our first 3 min protocol. I will give you a very critical inside view in SmO2 and MOXY and where we have to start understanding the difference in physiological testing. Here my point. Is a testing protocol creating a physiological information , which does not reflect the real physiological reactions. . Or in other words. Do we " manipulate" the test outcome by creating a limitation to functional reactions and structural integration of the involved physiological systems. See the picture below from some classical 3 min step test with information on lactate and SmO2. Question: What can we really do with this information , when we look for intensity ideas and training planning . Any suggestion how to use this information ?
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Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1370466124
#12
Here the promised physiological reaction in an IPAHD Purple is SmO2 trend and yellow is tHb ( blood volume. The second is a IPAHD with lactate and all respiratory info from Norway. / Swiss test center. Look at the trend in lactate and how it is very different when we give the physiology time to react. versus 3 min forced changes.
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Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1371492489
#13
Okay here we are back with some more practical questions and possible practical applications. I like to go back to one of teh MyPAHD case studies we go sent from this group. Att 1 shows you one of the step test " classical " step test " where the data collections show SmO2 as well as lactate. Now look carefully and it is a nice example to show you , how SmO2 is a very direct information on performance and the needed of O2. We see nicely at what step the client starts to use more O2 than it can bring in. This does NOT mean , that she is
" anaerobic" nor does it means, that she will show lactate in the system as of yet. This can be easy seen in the lactate curve. The lactate values run slightly one or 2 step behind the SmO2 trend. . Why ? Lactate is an indirect information and the4rfor we have a lag time. The lag time is the time between the production of the lactate in the working muscles and the place, where we test for lactate ( ear or finger). The second problem is the concentration in the blood versus the concentration in the working muscle ?? and the third clear point is the " recycling" of lactate as an energy source from muscles between the production site and the test site. All this plus more factors ( some possibly unknown as of yet ) will clearly influence and change lactate values. If it is this lag time, than you can see, why any change in lactate sampling in a step test 2 - 4 or more minutes step will show a very different lactate curve, and where we may only increase by 0.6 mmol in a 3 min test we may increase by adding 2 more minutes to the step by 1.6 mmol and therefore would reach the criteria for a step increase and would define this as lactate threshold. Same is true for 2 and 4 mmol ideas and even more true for any mathematical calculation based on angle ( 45 degree and so on ) on this lactate curve. There is no physiological justification out there, why a test suppose to have 3 min steps or why we would increase by 20 or 30 wattage. But all of this has a profound influence on the lactate curve. True it as well will have an influence on a SmO2 step Test. This is an other argument for the IPAHD idea. Now back to the test result of att. 1 One part you look is lactate trend and SmO2 trend. The more interesting section is at the end of the test. See how SmO2 starts to flattened out as a sign of reduced use of O2 and how the lactate at that stage increases, as a sign of much bigger integration of O2 independent energy supply. Questions? Why does this client has this incredible great SmO2 value but simply has a problem to actually use the Oxygen. She is completely saturated with O2 but can't get it to be used. 9 Bio availability of oxygen. When we look in this case at the VO2 data's and there more at the VE ( RF x TV ) as well as at the EtCO2 values we could give some better answers here. In this case 2 main open questions. a) Limitation from the muscular system to limitation from the bio availability of the metabolic trends ( CO2 trends. If we have a muscular limitation 9 Flat SmO2 on a high SmO2 level than we have to look at vasuclarisation and to mitochondria density. The first is needed to improve the second. If we have a deoxygenation limitation , than we have to look at the respiratory system. With IPAHD n the advance level we assess this as we go along , by challenging in the second 5 min of the same load exactly this 2 systems. .. Once we have the reason of the deoxygenation situation we than can design her a proper and specific workout plan to try to improve this weak link. Here 2 att who show you what I mean. Two workouts. att 2. deoxygenation workout where we try to drop SmO2. and att 3 where we do the opposite, we stop deoxygenation to create a hypoxia to stimulate vasuclarisation and therefor later mitochondria density production. The last one is a practical load on the ice with first complete possible deoxygenation followed by a section of hypoxia load ( no further drop in SmO2 )
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kalemkiarian
Study Participant
Registered:1368129505 Posts: 4
Posted 1371502109
#14
We have a SpiroTiger and will start incorporating that into our clients training. Any suggestions as to specific training with the SpiroTiger? Duration, time, times per day, respiratory rate and how often?
Juerg Feldmann
Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:1355349061 Posts: 1,530
Posted 1371507403
#15
The key here is not to rush on a Spiro Tiger, when we do not know, whether her respiration may be a compensator or a limiter. Here why: If the respiration is a limiter, than she may create a metabo reflex and as such a vasoconstriction and as such a whole chain reaction on the ability to get Oxygen to the working muscle. We can show that later if we move ahead. If the respiration is a compensator for a relative low mitochondria density ( as well as vascularisation ), than the respiration will try to buffer ( balance H + situation over the famous ability of CO2 respiration.. So fast approaching H + concentration will activate the respiration most often over frequency b and the lactate as a part of the buffering plus the CO2 respiration as a part of buffering will compensate for the weakness. So by improving even further the respiration will make it a better compensator but a bigger gab between the Limiter and the compensator creating more problems than solving them This is why we do an IPAHD. So here a suggestion. If you have an old " classical" VO2 test please send me the info . If you have a fit Mate than simply sent the excel sheet from the test and we can get a closer look. If you have the moxy we can do a IPAHD and I can show you how you do an advanced version so you can try different options out at the different trends of respiration and SmO2 information and lactate accumulation. The key when integrating respiration is to assess the current habits on how the person is breathing, than look how you would like to change it so you either can improve oxygenation or deoxygenation. ( depending how you shift the O2 Dis curve ) and with the MOXY you actually have a real time feedback on the success of your intervention, as well on the duration you actually can see the success. This will create a physiological guided training you can do during nay low intensity ( basic endurance workout ) we name STEI. Summary. like with any add on to a performance training program you have to take the time and asses on how and why we would add more hours or take some hours from certain workouts. Like a strength workout in the gym a respiratory Spiro tiger workout has to be sport specific , otherwise you may be a great bench presser or a great Spiro tiger user, but no of minimal effect will be seen in the actual sport of your choice. Solution. A proper assessment where we need information on VE ( RF and TV ) as well as FeO2 % and Et CO2 and than we know , whether your client is working hyper or hypocapnic at the end and how his body tries to solve this situation over the respiratory function. Here to start out an overview on the seminar we had in Europe for the Spiro Tiger competency centers and future MOXY centers hopefully. There are some generic "cook book " approaches for Spiro Tiger , we use, when people just add it to a core strength and overall fitness program, but as soon you work sport specific you have to take many more points into consideration. Hope this gets you somewhere further otherwsie please come back with questions.