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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
First visit the fix studio website and enjoy. Second thanks  to all  to jump in and take the challenge with us.
 Here my thoughts and challenge to show we  all can learn and make many mistakes.
 I took the challenge as I have only the MOXY info  and nothing more and simply  try to think loud. Please give feedback hard and brutal so we see where we stand  with out ideas.
 See  PP below

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
here a second test ( 3 min ) from the FIX studio)
Let's do the same steps and see what we have here on info just based on MOXY ( SmO2)

Again  a few open questions.
Three points where we have this questions. The 3 points are easy to find.
 If the start is at the first drop than this athlete pushed at the end 240 watts.
 If it is at the second drop it would be 220 watt.
 Interesting again the second drop is again a drop  down to a 200 watt level. So question to this team  " Calibration  in that stage".
 Than we have a third spot , with a peak  of SmO2 up. around 140 - 160 watt.
 Why ?
 You can see this peak if there is a sudden drop in pedal pressure occurs. ( Could be when shifting gears ) or in a situation , where there is a change in Ventilation.
The Fix studio team can give us more info on my speculations.
 Interesting the end again a rapid drop in SmO2 indicating a delivery problem. So again Physio flow info  and Respiratory info  paired with tHb would give an answer here.
 Next job for this team. 5/1/5 with loads of 100 watt/ 140/180/220.
 Look why we would take this  idea for an individual Assessment protocol

Attached Images
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kalemkiarian

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Posts: 4
 #3 
Hi Juerg,

I have placed all our test data in the DropBox, including body weight, heart rate, RPE and lactate draws.   Heart Rate, RPE and SMO2 are all manually written down 2 minutes and 30 seconds into each stage. Lacate draws were taken 2 min and 45 seconds into each stage. The CompuTrainer Lab is calibrated prior to each test between 2.00 - 2.50.  Each athlete also has a power meter (PowerTap, Quarq or SRM) on their bike so we can compare if there are any differences.  

Our athletes compete at amateur and professional levels and all utilize a power meter during training and racing. We use the power data to analyze many different factors, including functional threshold power. 

Thanks,
Levon Kalemkiarian
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Thanks great news and I will take a closer look as it will be very fascinating to see Lactate  and SmO2  as they have very different properties.
 Do you have as well respiratory and cardiac infos  :
Plus do you have the FTP wattage of the athletes you tested.
 Last but not least if you can give a critical  review on my speculation I made based on only SmO2 infor from  the first 2 tests you sent us that would be great , as well as if you can start 5/1/5 tests in the same clients to see  the different reactions.
 One more thing. As all your clients have power meter and are very familiar with FTP can they do a FTP but take all 10 min a lactate sample as well live info on SmO2 by pushing on their latest FTP test result.
 Question . Is a fixed wattage really a fixed physiological intensity ? P is it just a fixed physical unit ?

kalemkiarian

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Posts: 4
 #5 
The athletes are well trained and can control their wattage, so the wattage is not fixed. The athletes have to actually pedal and sustain the wattage. Each stage is analyzed to ensure the correct wattage. Unfortunately we do not have respiratory and Cardiac info (besides heart rate). 

Speculation questions:

Each athlete is instructed to maintain seated during the entire duration of the test, however sometimes they will accelerate up and down on the saddle.  Another aspect to consider is the athletes ability to focus during the test. Once focus is lost and wattage drops and they are reminded to stay focused and therefore over accelerate their wattage and then bring it back down to the recommended wattage. When asked to increase wattage to the next stage (+20 watts) there is also an over acceleration during this period, therefore seeing a spike in SmO2 and then a steady state. 

The test graph posted identify's the test beginning around #2. The athlete went to a maximum of 280 watts. This athlete has the ability to sustain 225 watts for 1 hour, however it was speculated to be around 240 - 260? 


Test 1 - FTP = 210 watts
Test 2 - FTP = 180 watts
Test 3 - FTP = 225 watts
Test 4 - FTP = 230 watts 


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #6 

Thanks so much will go into the drop box and look at  more carefully how my earlier speculation look  with real information. Thanks for the great info and  thanks for sharing the info with us.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
Kalem , need you help. Can you give a look at the first 2 "speculation" I made and tell me the names on the drop box of the 2 athletes. I like than to go back and use SmO2 and lactate as questions to  the classical way we do testing to  start some critical questions on SmO2 and lactate. Thanks so much.
 2 in your excel sheet  from you great tests you had the classical 3 min step tests. So we have a HR  a lactate value and a SmO2 value.  How did you decided on the values.
  A0 are they averages over the 3 min step length .
b averages over the last  min in the  step or last reading at the moment of  blood sampling.
 What ever you took  what is the reasoning be3hind. ? Thanks.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Short question for Kalem.
  First  I will use your great info from the  study testing to show some very very intriguing trends you created  with the study protocol to show the difference in  SmO2 info versus lactate info.
 Here  first the question.
 The FTP you  had on the top.
  FTP  180 belongs  to S ?
FTP 220 belongs to ST ?
FTP 225 belongs to R ?
FTP 230 belongs to T ?
 If yes just confirm or correct if possible.
kalemkiarian

Study Participant
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Posts: 4
 #9 
Test #1 - Stacy FTP = 210 watts
Test #2 - Susan FTP = 180 watts
Test #3 - Rob FTP = 225 watts
Test #4 - Terra FTP = 230 watts


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Kalem ,  thanks so much.
 First of all,  I can't say  more than  woww great great work. The Fix Studio joint our Study group very late in the game but is already far ahead of many others  with data collections and information's.
 I will  show this evening one of the biog challenges  with Physiological testing using this data's from our first 3 min protocol.
 I will   give you a very critical inside view in SmO2 and MOXY and where we have to start understanding the difference in physiological testing.
 Here my point.
  Is a testing protocol   creating a physiological information , which does not reflect the real physiological  reactions.
 . Or in other words.  Do we " manipulate" the  test outcome by creating a limitation to  functional reactions and structural integration of  the involved physiological systems.
 See the picture below from  some classical 3 min step test with information on lactate and  SmO2.
 Question:
 What can we really do with this  information , when we look for intensity ideas and training planning . Any suggestion how to use this information ?

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: lac_moxy_inversion.jpg, Views: 32, Size: 32.11 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #11 
Okay here the first  thinking process to the above  idea.
 The  protocol will inhibit a proper physiological information.
 Solution:
 Create a physiological protocol so we have a proper information from the physiological systems.

Here the problem nicely demonstrated in the FIX studios great tests.
Pic  1.;  3 min step test 60 watt start  with lactate every 3 min.
 One value was most likely a wrong reading ( you can see which one ).
Now critical question ?
 What really  do we  see and can use  on this lactate curve, knowing that this curve will look very different if the  steps would be 1 , 2  or 4  or 5 min  steps ? What conclusion to you reach about using lactate ?
Pic 2. Now  there is really no big difference by using SmO2 with the difference , that it is non invasive and non stop and  direct.
 BUT,  What can we really tell here. Possible 2 small trends  at the start and at the end but is that good enough to justify using SmO2 ?

Pic  3 and up. I used lactate trends  together with SmO2 trends.  What can you see when using this 2 information ?
  last pic is a physiological solution using in this case just SmO2  and I will  show you some lactate in the same test as well.
 Question.
 What can you see here in this  version of test. Don't think just look at trends and pictures.

Attached Images
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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #12 
Here the promised physiological reaction in an IPAHD   Purple is SmO2 trend and yellow is tHb ( blood volume. The second is a IPAHD with lactate and all  respiratory info from Norway. / Swiss test center. Look at the trend in lactate and how it is very different when we give the physiology time to react. versus 3 min forced changes.

Attached Images
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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #13 

Okay    here we are back with some more practical  questions and possible practical applications.
 I like to go back to one of teh MyPAHD case studies we go  sent from this group.
 Att 1  shows you one of the step test " classical " step test " where   the data collections show SmO2  as well as  lactate.
Now look carefully  and it is a nice example to show you , how SmO2 is a very direct information on performance and the needed of O2. We see nicely at what step the client starts to use more O2  than it can bring in.
 This does NOT mean , that she is

" anaerobic" nor does it means, that she will show lactate in the system as of yet.
 This can be easy seen in the lactate curve.
 The lactate values run slightly one or 2 step behind the SmO2 trend.
. Why ?
 Lactate is an indirect information  and the4rfor  we have a lag time.
 The lag time is the time between the production of the lactate in the working muscles and the place, where we test for lactate ( ear or finger). The second problem is the concentration in the blood versus the concentration in the working  muscle ??
 and the third clear point is the  " recycling" of lactate  as an energy source from muscles between the production site and the test site.
All this plus more factors ( some possibly unknown as of yet ) will clearly influence and change lactate values. If it is this lag time, than you can see, why any change in lactate sampling in a  step test 2 - 4  or more minutes step will show a very different lactate curve, and where we  may only increase by 0.6 mmol in a 3 min test we may increase  by adding 2 more minutes to the step by 1.6 mmol  and therefore would  reach the criteria for a  step increase and  would define this as lactate threshold.
 Same is true for 2 and 4 mmol ideas and even more true for any mathematical  calculation based on  angle ( 45 degree  and so on ) on this lactate curve.
 There is no  physiological justification out there, why  a test suppose to have 3 min steps or why we would increase by 20 or 30 wattage. But all of this has a profound influence on the lactate curve.
 True  it as well will have an influence on a  SmO2 step Test.
 This is an other argument for the IPAHD idea.
 Now back to the  test result of  att. 1


 One part you look  is lactate trend and SmO2 trend.
 The more interesting section is at the end of the test. See how SmO2 starts to  flattened out as a sign of reduced use of O2 and how the lactate at that stage increases, as a sign of much bigger integration of O2 independent  energy supply.

Questions?  Why does this client has this incredible great  SmO2  value  but simply has a problem to actually use the Oxygen.
 She is completely saturated with O2  but can't get it to be used. 9 Bio availability of oxygen.
 When we  look in this case at the VO2 data's and there more at the VE ( RF x TV ) as well as at the EtCO2 values  we could give some better answers here.
 In this case 2 main open questions.
 a) Limitation  from the muscular system  to limitation from the bio availability of the   metabolic  trends ( CO2 trends.
 If we have a muscular limitation 9 Flat  SmO2 on a high  SmO2 level than we  have to look at vasuclarisation and  to mitochondria density.
 The first is needed to improve the second.
 If we have a deoxygenation limitation , than we have to look at  the respiratory system.
 With IPAHD n the   advance level we  assess this as we go along , by challenging in the second 5 min of the same load exactly this 2 systems.
..
 Once we have the reason of the  deoxygenation situation  we than can design  her a proper and specific  workout plan to try to improve this weak link.
 Here 2 att who show you what I mean.
 Two workouts.
 att 2. deoxygenation workout where we try to drop SmO2.
 and att 3  where we do the opposite, we stop deoxygenation to create a hypoxia to stimulate  vasuclarisation  and  therefor later  mitochondria density production.
The last one is a practical  load on the ice with first complete possible deoxygenation  followed by a section of hypoxia load ( no further drop  in SmO2 )

Attached Images
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kalemkiarian

Study Participant
Registered:
Posts: 4
 #14 
We have a SpiroTiger and will start incorporating that into our clients training. Any suggestions as to specific training with the SpiroTiger? Duration, time, times per day, respiratory rate and how often? 
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #15 
The key here is not to rush  on a Spiro Tiger, when we do not know, whether her respiration may be a compensator or a limiter.
 Here  why:
 If the respiration is a limiter, than she may create a metabo reflex and as such a vasoconstriction and as such a whole chain reaction on the ability to get Oxygen to the working muscle.
  We can  show that later  if we move ahead.
 If the respiration is a compensator for a  relative  low mitochondria density ( as well as vascularisation ), than the respiration will try to  buffer ( balance  H + situation over the famous ability of    CO2  respiration.. So  fast approaching H + concentration will activate the respiration most often over frequency b and the lactate as a part of the buffering  plus the CO2 respiration as a part of buffering will  compensate for the weakness. So by improving even further the respiration will make it a better compensator but a bigger  gab between  the Limiter and the compensator creating more problems than solving them
 This is why we do an IPAHD. So here a suggestion. If you have an old " classical" VO2 test  please send me the info . If you have a fit Mate than simply sent the excel sheet from the test and we can get a closer look.
 If you have the moxy we can do a IPAHD and I can show you  how you do an advanced version  so you can try  different options out  at the different  trends of respiration and SmO2 information and lactate accumulation.  The key when integrating respiration is  to assess the current habits on how the person is breathing, than look how you would like to change it so you either can improve oxygenation or deoxygenation. ( depending how you shift the O2 Dis curve ) and with the MOXY you actually have a real time feedback on the success of your intervention, as well on the duration you actually can see the success.
 This will create a physiological guided training you can do during nay low intensity ( basic endurance workout ) we name  STEI.

Summary.
 like with any add on to a performance training program  you have to take the time and asses on how and why we would add more hours or take some hours from certain workouts.
Like a strength workout  in the gym  a respiratory Spiro tiger workout has to be sport specific  , otherwise you may be a great  bench presser or a great Spiro tiger user, but no of minimal effect will be seen in the actual sport of your choice.
 Solution.
 A proper  assessment  where we need information on VE  ( RF and TV ) as well as  FeO2 % and Et CO2 and than we know , whether your client is working hyper or hypocapnic at the end and how  his  body tries to solve this situation over the respiratory function.

 Here to start out an overview on the  seminar  we  had in Europe  for the Spiro Tiger competency centers and  future MOXY  centers hopefully.
There are some generic "cook book " approaches for Spiro Tiger , we use, when people just add it to  a core strength and  overall fitness program, but as soon you work sport specific you have to take many more points into consideration.
Hope this  gets you somewhere further otherwsie please come back with questions.

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