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Etiennebest

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Posts: 34
 #1 

Hello All,

I'm quite new to the use of Moxy. I come from an endurance sport (triathlon) background where things tend to be pretty well integrated with a lot of research and ideas and tools (maybe too many) and you can spend more time looking and thinking about the information (and often coming to wrong conclusions!) after it has been presented than getting it presented in the first place.

That said, there are a couple of basic steps that I usually follow:

1. Determine what to measure (either with or without a hypothesis. I.e. Determining what I would like to cook.). I like a good mix - so I like to measure as much as possible.
2. Determine how to measure it (test procedure, parameters etc. I.e. Determining what ingredients I need and how much). Many basic and not so basic gadgets available - HRMs, GPSes, Cadence sensors and so forth.
3. Presenting the measurements (which pot am I using, stirred how often and tasted when...). Garmin Connect, Training Peaks, Golden Cheetah, PerfPro, Peripedal, Excel, CSV, .Fit files....
4. Taking action based on the information (I.e. Tasting it as I go along and figuring out if I want to add salt...or chilli!).

To do the above I have come up with some ideas of what seems to work and what not in other areas, but this is such a new and complex topic I'm completely out of my depth (and my sense of taste isn't that well developed yet!).

This is where I would like to learn, and hopefully eventually share some practical information. As a new Moxy user and not even knowing what I don't know, I'm quite happy to start on the same basis as most others do with no 1 (do a 5-1-5 etc.). I'm very interested in no 2 and 3 and hopefully, I will be able to gather enough ideas into how to prepare something special!

So, some questions:

1. What?
1.1. Apart from the 5-1-5, what other assessments should I look at doing at the beginning or perhaps executing slightly differently? I'm interested in endurance - but if you are a specialist somewhere else I would like to hear these ideas too.
           Play with moxy placement (even when not doing a workout) by placing it on different places on the body (even on the same muscle). - Ruud_G
           Play with breathing and see what happens. - Ruud_G
          
2. How?
2.1 I'm familiar with some of the basic placement options of the Moxy, but some of the muscle groups are quite large so there is scope for variability - how do you get around this? 
          Always place it at the same spot (use a reference point like a mole or something) - Ruud_G
          Be consistent with what you do with your leg during a 5-1-5. Keep it in the same position during every 1 min rest. - Ruud_G

2.2 How do I know if I'm placing it correctly (I've never placed SMEG sensors etc...). I've learnt more about physiology in the last few weeks than I did in the last few years (I've had it too easy, I know...but you can't really get an HRM or Power sensor wrong...).
          Start with around 3 min sitting on the bike to have a proper calibration - Ruud_G
          Build your own 5-1-5 test and rather have more steps than too few. - Juergfeldmann.

2.3. When is too much light too much light? When should I be using the sleeve?
       Should be fine if under darker clothing and out of direct sunlight. - Juergfeldmann.

2.4. Any specific tips and tricks with placement? The strapping rolls seem to work well on my VL and I can sort of hold it on my deltoid during a bike session using the strapping (but the "plaster" seems to work better). How on earth do you stick it to your glutes on the bike? And where? Some of us have more fat here than we would like to admit [smile]).
          Careful wearing too tight stuff - it will influence results - Ruud_G
          Do not use compression clothing on the muscle you will be measuring from because it will risk an occlusion influence - Juergfeldmann.

2.5 What else do you record as a matter of course and what single thing apart from HR and Power/Cadence/Speed have you found gives you the most additional valuable information?
2.6 What do you use to record it? Peripedal? PerfPro? Some sort of Ant+ device/head unit?
          Peripedal works well for a couple of devices - PerfPro gives more flexibility in building assessments and looking at the data in a more granular fashion - Etiennebest.
2.7 When you record - do you do anything specific to make things easier/more accurate?
          Use a quick press of the on/off button on the unit to mark a "lap" or starting point in the data file. Particularly helpful if you want to align data with your recording device/multiple Moxy units
          - Juergfeldmann
          North Pole Engineering WASP device can possibly be used to stream all related data streams to a single file. http://www.npe-inc.com/ - bcoddens.

3. Presentation?
3.1 How do you pull all the information together and present it?
          Use a tool like peripedal to see it live. - Ruud_G

3.2 Is there an Excel template somewhere that has all the most common/basic formulas/Graphs already in it? I've been building my own but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.
          Peripedal, PerfPro and Golden Cheetah have most of the basic reports already in. Rather try to work with these unless you have something very specific you want to try or are adding a data type/point that they do not support e.g. breathing. - Etiennebest.

4. Analysis?
4.1. How do you start making sense of what you're seeing? We don't do cook books around here - that much I've noticed and I agree with, but where did you begin? What works, and more importantly, DOESN'T work? 
          Do not look for and end point or "critical" point like Lactate Threshold. 
          Physiological assessments are not performance driven but by as optimal a set up  as possible for physiological reactions to occur.
          Physiological assessment looks for limiters locally or systemically. E.g. CO  = HR  x SV (Cardiac Output = Heart Rate X Stroke Volume).
               We may see an increase in CO but due to an increase in HR, so SV reached a limitation.
               We may see an increase in VE but TV is stable so may have reached a TV limitation and now we only increase over RF (VE: Pulmonary Ventilation ie. Breathing,
               TV: Tidal Volume, RF:Respiratory Frequency).
               We may see a limitation in SmO2 drop but tHb is still increasing. etc. - Juergfeldmann

               Summary - Juergfeldmann.
               Physiological assessment  does not make your life easy. In contrary it will make it very challenging.
               The  big advantage of a % calculated training program is, that there are no questions as all is given.
               The  big questions remains but nobody ever asks is, does the % intensity or level we choose really is the stimulation we plan to try to apply.
               The big advantage of physiological assessments today will be live feedback of what is going on so we can combine the performance with the live response during the workout.

That's it for now...I'm sure I will have plenty more.
@Roger/Jeurg please feel free to move this or refer me to other sections where these questions are covered? I tried searching, and I've found some info, but it is quite spread out across multiple forums and I'm not always sure of the context or validity of some of the information.

Below is what I've started putting together in terms of acronyms, definitions and descriptions some processes and guidelines. These are just my thoughts - nothing definitive and perhaps not even 100% correct, but it may help somebody else make a few connections or save some learning effort. I'll be updating this file and this section with new information from below as and when I have time.
  
 
xlsx MNotesV1.4.xlsx     (updated 18/12/2015)


juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #2 
Woww  what a great  information  Thanks so much.
 a) you ask the  wrong guy as  I am the most messed  up brain you can find.
 Nevertheless I like to start    somewhere.
 1. Fte familiar  with the fact that you are already  cooking great.
 So  start easy. Use  peripedal  and I think we sent you a free one.
. Use it live   when you do a test indoor.
 Use  3 m  stretch tape . Put  moxy in a  cellophane  wrap  to protect lights  form  sweat. Than tape it  on your VL    so you contract the muscle  and you take half  way between leg  and hip  and place it. you can erasure so you place Plus minus  the  same when you use it. In cycling  it is just under the cycling shorts. So no  light shield  nothing. Don't  use a strap  )  occlusion  risk   or  do not use a   compression    system like pants or  if on calf  travel  stockings.  Simply tape it. under the cycling short  the  tape works  just perfect  .
 Than   sit 3 min   and have the leg in a  fixed position  at rest  and than in every 1 min rest same position   doe not matter  where but just the same.
 Start better too slow  and make more  double steps than  too fast.
. Pair  HR  as well with peripedal.
 Do not use   any of the  programs ether make a new  one  so you have  a great  initial 3 min screen where you add up later. Will show this evening  how you  make this   but I am sure you find it out  easy.
 Now we have  all on there  HR  and  NIRS info  and  you than can use the csv  file  as well.
 Make a initila 5/1/5  sent it   to me  and we  will have fun  to look at it.
 Besides HR if you are able  to  check RF  that  woudl be great. We need nothing  other than  that  no wattage not   RPM  no nothing just   NIRS feedback  first.  Now  fix  your  BSX  gen  2 on the other leg    as  close  same position as you can . You as well will get a  csv  file . You  can us it or you can sent it. It is not about   what is better here it is about  how to use NIRS  as best as possible. Both  give  now  absolute SmO2  values  so   that means  both  have a range theoretical  from 0  to 100 % It is  one of the base  validation. Close to 100 %  saturation  so  95 +- in highest  readings  down  to  ) +-  some %   during a  full occlusion test. Will be fun  to have you in our  kitchen. Now be ready  for menu  surprise
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #3 
Etienne,
 Just  thinking through your great questions and points. . Here   some  feedback.
   What we  do is  possibly  very strange and fundamentally different  from what most people are  used to do  till now.  This is a super  short summary  of the  difference  people have to get use  when going  though physiological assessments.

1. We  do not look  for and end point or  " critical " point   like  LT  idea. After   the classical  ideas finds  this point   it is  all left to the  calculator  and  % ideas. Key words.  Max  HR.  / Max VO2/  FTP /  LT/ VT

2. Physiological assessments  are not  performance  driven but  driven by as optimal as possible  set up  for physiological reactions to occur. Key  word.   physiological lag  time./ Systemic appearance  of values like VO2  or  lactate.

3. Physiological assessment look  for limiters  to show up    locally  or systemically. Example.
 CO  = HR  x SV
So  we may see a in crease in CO  but   due to only increase of HR  so  SV reached a limitation.
We may see an increase in VE but TV is stable  so  may have reached a TV limitation  and  now we only increase over  RF
We may see a limitation in   SmO2  drop  but tHb is still increasing.  and much more.

Summary .
 Physiological assessment  does not make your life easy. In contrary it  will make it very  challenging.
 The  big advantage  of a  %  calculated  training program is, that there are   no questions   as all i given.
. The  big  questions  remains  but nobody ever asks is,  does  the  %  intensity or  level we choose really is   the stimulation we plan  to try to apply.
. The big advantage of  physiological  assessments  today  will be  a live feedback of what si going on so we  can combine the  performance  with  the respond live   during the  workout  .   So  Etienne  welcome in this interesting  world  of  activity  assessments
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #4 
Some quick points:

If you want to relate workouts:
- always place it at the same spot (use a reference point like a mole or something)
- start with around 3 min sitting on the bike to have a proper calibration
- don't wear too tight stuff. It will influence results
- for cycling vastus lateralis (midway between tigh and knee) rectus femoris is a good one
- when new start with the 5-1-5 and be consistent on how you place your leg which has the moxy during the 1 min rest period
- start to read. Not only from this forum but also wrt exercise physiology in general
- use a tool like peripedal to see it live for you
- do some data collectione from different workouts and try to understand them
- play with you breathing and see what happens
- play with moxy placement (even when not doing a workout) by placing it on different places on the body (even on the same muscle)
- share, discuss and learn each other on his forum. We never stop learning new things here!!!!!!

Etc. Just some small points
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #5 
Ruud, big  bravo , thanks great  super  makes my work  much easier  . Wrong, makes  me having fun on here  much  more  fun.
Etiennebest

Development Team Member
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Posts: 34
 #6 
My uses/experiences so far.

My experience to date has been to take some advice and simply play...ignoring assessments for now, or at least not doing them seriously.

First Use:
On a pool swim with the Moxy stuck to my Latimus Dorsi - only 1.2km but it helped me figure out that sometimes it helps to have another person around to help you "place" the device...in this case my wife was most patient and helpful. I was quite worried about the sealing of the unit, but it was inside a baggie and held up just fine. Didn't really know what to do with the data after.

Second use 
A long slow run - 15km around the neighborhood - once again the focus was on placement but the additional factor was direct sunlight. I used the strapping tape and placing it under my running shorts. Ended up placing the unit too low on my Vastus lateralis and was perplexed why my starting SmO2 values were around 40% and dropping as soon as I did any hill climbs...but it was great seeing the information graphed on my watch (Fenix 3). I would guess that the placement wasn't on enough of the "muscle" to get a high enough SmO2 reading - tHb seemed ok, so although the tape felt a bit tight I don't think I was cutting off blood flow enough to have an effect. Managed to download all the data from the Moxy and from Garmin Connect.

Third Use
An indoor bike session with high intensity intervals - once again on the VL and a second unit on the delta pars acromialis (DA). All paired using PerfPro. The unit on the DA would drop out intermittently. It was simply stuck on and under a dark shirt. It was only once I noticed that as soon as I covered the unit with my hand that it would start to pick up values again that it made sense that the angle of light coming through the window had changed and was hitting the spot where the unit was under my shirt directly - so a lot of light interference. Roger mentioned somehwere that once the signal/noise ratio becomes too much the unit will stop recording. I guess this is what happened and is also what made me a lot more aware of the impact of light on the Moxy unit. Downloaded all combined data from PerPro and the DA data from the Moxy (for some reason I can't get PerfPro to see the session of the additional rider after the ride is done, although I can see it during the ride).

Fourth Use
Indoor bike 5-1-5 Tip test using Peripedal. I used a Peripedal 5-1-5 assessment instead of building my own. Found out after the fact that it is recommended that we rather build our own - the publically available tests don't have a 3min "calibration" wait at the beginning and they could potentially start with too high an initial load to make the test worth while...placement was once again on the VL and DA but still not perfect (too low on the VL...got meaningful info, but not as correct as it could be). Got all the data saved from Peripedal and pulled it into Excel - don't know if the graphs I'm building are worth anything/correct.

Fifth Use:
A longish (95km) outdoor bike ride. The placement was much better on the VL and DA, light shielding on the VL was good, on the DA maybe not so good. Units were surprisingly comfortable througout the ride and I didn't notice them at all. Ride was 3h15min long and the batteries still indicated "OK" in the PC download - would like to stretch this and see how they hold up. I have a .fit file from Garmin Connect and the Raw Moxy data to show for this session - might place it in the case studies section "just for fun" as Jeurg would say.

Sixth Use:
Another Indoor bike 5-1-5 TIP assessment using Peripedal. This time I built my own. I was perhaps a bit too liberal with the starting values and might have started out too easy (30% of estimated FTP) to stimulate an initial response. Picked up on the second 5min set. Added some additional shielding in the form of a piece of simple black cloth over the unit just under my tri-suit - rather more shielding than too little. Saw some interesting things in the last set that I would have liked to explore on the fly - not familiar enough with Peripedal to do that so had to stick to the sets. Think I could have changed it away from ERG mode and just duplicated the previous set...will try it next time.

Summary:
1. Learn how and where to place the device by playing around and finding what/where works best.
2. It helps to have somebody around that can help you wrap/place the unit sometimes.
3. Direct light is the enemy - rather more shielding than too little.
4. Getting all the data from an outdoor activity in one place and synchronised for meaningful analysis is difficult. Too many files in too many formats from too many possible applications - I need help with a workflow on this!
5. Flexibility in the software you use to build the assessment is important - so is knowing how to use it!
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
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Posts: 279
 #7 
Very good summary! I recognize the points you make. Especially the points of aligning the data from outdoors. As soon as you have some data dropouts either from garmin or moxy data integration goes wrong. I used GC as few times but aligning data remains a problem. This is not a problem anymore when garmin releases Garmin Connect support for the Moxy app AND saves the data in the .fit file directly. I agree that file handling for outdoor is too time consuming at the moment and therefor I only (98% of time) use it indoor in peripedal where it is properly aligned and saved.


Wrt your lower smo2 value at the lower end (meaning more in direction of the knee) i recognise that too. More upstream higher values, more downstream lower values.
Etiennebest

Development Team Member
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Posts: 34
 #8 
Ruud,

When you did attempt to match outdoor activities with Moxy data what did you use/how did you go about it?

So far I have done the following:

A:
For the non-Moxy data from my Garmin device (Fenix 3 in this case):
1. Export .fit file from Garmin Connect.
2. Import .fit file into Golden Cheetah.
3. Export .fit file from Golden Cheetah to GC .json file.
4. Open .json file in Microsoft Excel and manipulate/strip meta data from fields to leave only raw values.

B:
Moxy data:
1. Save data from Moxy (repeat for multiple devices) (.csv + .FIT created).
2. Import .fit file into Golden Cheetah.
3. Export .fit file from Golden Cheetah to GC .json file.
4. Open .json file in Microsoft Excel and manipulate/strip meta data from fields to leave only raw values.

C:
1. Combine A+B raw values in Excel "Master" file.
2. Build scatter graphs.
 
Problem that I have is that .fit and .csv time stamps are in different formats and I can't seem to get the graphs to line up in GC...that is why I import everything into and export everything from GC and do it in Excel where it seems easier to manipulate the data.

Surely there must be an easier way?
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #9 


Etienne. See the video above. This does not however solve data missing (recording) problems.

If i want to do something with those outdoor rides I export my garmin ride data from GC as .csv. Then I export Moxy data from the Moxy and try to align it. And yes. It is a lot of fumbling in excel to get it properly done in the end [frown]
Etiennebest

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 34
 #10 
Notes xlxs file in first entry is updated...
Etiennebest

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 34
 #11 
Version 1.4 of the MoxyNotes file is up and available in the first entry. All new/modified entries between previous and next versions will be marked by an "x".
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