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juergfeldmann

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 #16 
Now lets' go  first to the section , where we all  are happy  with.
 LT  or lactate threshold.
Here the test  again  including lactate  readings  after 3  and 6 min in each step.
real  tets plus lactate.jpg
Okya now I need help.
 ; a)   we can take  3 min steps  but  we see  different lactate values   or we can  take the end lactate values of each 6 min step.
 So lets  see.
2 x 3  6 min lac.jpg 

above is HR  and lactate  as we  see them in the full step test.
 Now  what LT  theories  can be ably to not  change the theory  or better  so we do not need to manipulate the    data's  too much. 
LT  1.  definition, when we cross the first time the  start  value . so in this case LT1  is  by 2  so first p
step Hmm perhaps  better we stick to 2 mmol lactate as the LT1  so  it will be  by 6  and step 7 ( 4  real step. . looks  better so lets stick  with this as it fits closer to what we  think.
 LT2  or LT  . The  easiest   idea is   the 1 mmol increase in 2  cons. steps. So  that would be  by  step 7  or  again step 4.
 Not  optimal as we have to give up the  LT1  2 mol idea, but  we can accept the LT1  first idea  so we can  have LT2  second  idea  on 1 mmol step .
Or  we take  4 mmol as the other easy  way  and clear way.
 so LT  would be by step 7  to 8. In fact we may be lucky here, as we have a very close to 4 mmol Actually we have   a great option here to  twist the theory so it fits as w  have 3  x  the  4 mmol crossing  so  we can  sell LT  by se crossing  for 4 mmol between  7/8  or  8/9 or  9  and 10.

lots. of option  to  find a  result  who fist somewhat to performance.
 Now  this  when we  take performance  as the   guide  for a  workout  as lactate is somewhat harder to use  during  workouts but it is possible.

Well we could take lactate and HR.
hr lt  and more.jpg

 You can see here lot's of  options  and   we may need  the experienced  coach  who knows  this athlete  to find the optimal pleasing solution.

 The   3  and 6 min   individual  curve   and lactate values with  performance  do not look  much  better.

3 min  and 6 mn  split lac  2 and 4 mmol  and.jpg 


 True  we could now  by  createing a lactate  curve  out  of points  use  different other LT options like tangent against the  curve  and sue different  angles, depending what  school we where in  so   that in the exam  we suggest the proper  idea  so we  pass ( Smile )

 So      interesting choices.
 Now we add to a step test  NIRS.

2 test differetn MOXY information.jpg 

above 2 different step test  same athlete same placing  different step length. Datas   courtesy  of Red Bull performance centre.
 Now  we add the NIRS  curve or data's  from this  athelet we discuss here.
  and we  have a complete mess.
 We  simply  destroy the  information we can  extract  from NIRS  by  forcing it upon a lactate  threshold  idea.
 We  see no  clear BP  nor do we see any decent  connections  besides the  interesting  dynamic   of the lactate in each step thanks to  two values.

 Summary . :
 Does a  protocol  hinders the  feedback  our  body  could give on physiological reaction and we simply  deside on a  protocol  to  justify our believes. ?

lactatedynmic.jpg 

and as a summary   already shown

Thirdly, an alternate or a complementary explanation to the pattern of plasma ]La-] response to ramp exercise can be suggested. According to this explanation, lactate is produced in the working muscle: (1) as soon as the exercise begins, as suggested by Brooks (1985); or (2) following a delay, according to the theory of the anaerobic threshold (Davis 1985). Under both hypotheses the onset of lactate production within the working muscles occurs at comparatively low work rates. At that time: (1) the amounts of lactate produced  and the gradient between muscle [La-] and plasma [La-], and the amount of lactate released from the muscle remains small; (2) cardiac output and muscle blood flow are also low and do not favour lactate release from the working muscles and its distribution into S; and (3) the small amounts of lactate released are diluted within the comparatively large S, thus resulting in a very small increase (if any) in plasma [La-]. Therefore, a delay could be expected between the beginning of lactate production within the working muscles and the parabolic rise in plasma [La-] in response to ramp exercise in a similar way that, in response to a short period of severe exercise, the peak value of plasma [La-] is only observed following a several-minute delay into the recovery period (see Hirvonen et al. 1987, 1992). Consequently, plasma [La-] concentration at a given t during a ramp exercise does not reflect lactate production in the muscle at that precise t and at the exact corresponding work rate, but at a previous t minus ~ of unknown and probably variable length, and at the corresponding work rate. This phenomenon might have been overlooked in the development of the theory of the anaerobic threshold which implicitly assumes that plasma [La-] at a given t reflects lactate production and thus the metabolic state of the muscles at that precise t, and at the exact corresponding work rate. This is very unlikely to be the case, particularly during the exercise protocols of short duration and with steep increase in work rate used for the detection of the anaerobic threshold (Anderson and Rhodes 1989). In this type of protocol, where VO2 significantly lags behind the value expected for the corresponding work rate (Whippet al. 1981), it may be expected that plasma [La-] also tracks the metabolic state of the working muscles with a significant delay, particularly at the beginning of exercise for the reasons presented above.


So  help  to  order  these  mess  so we can  discuss  lactate in a  orderly manner.

juergfeldmann

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 #17 
Good morning.
 Still hoping  to get  classical lactate users in to help  to " defend  or  explain, why a 3 min test  gives  the "proper"  performance level  to  train and  use  for  zoning  than  5 min step test.
 As well  why a 1 mmol increase in 2   follow up  steps is the  real LT  and what happens , when we have .1 mmol  measurement    situation.
Example  2.3  next 3.2 next 4.4.
 Now  if the first is  2.2  what  than.
For the  rower  when you where looking at   ear  finger  and    toes  and you do eh test  at the  important 2 mmol intensity ,  look and sett and see the  relative big  fluctuation   of  .4  and  more depending on the  site. My point.  lets  be fair  and look at the  current ideas of lactate and VO2  the same  way  with the same  question we  have to   ask  , when we   like to integrate  NIRS into the  assessment tools. Now  this is  crucial not just  for assessments  but  much more  for  integration in practical applications  in the field  and during workouts.
So  help. How  do you  still use lactate  Reading  for example in a tennis  game, or  during a volleyball practice. How  do you us e VO2   % in an interval workout  or a strength workout ?
 How  do you guide  your   rest period  in a  weight program  for  load and recovery  with a lactate sampling  or  any other current tools ?
How  do you  adjust length    of  laid  and  rest period in a BFR  workout. Many more  questions we  have  going through our minds

DanieleM

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 #18 
Glad you resumed this post Juerg since I believe it was kind of "unfinished".
The biased graph (O2HB) is not so different from SmO2.
biasedmss.jpg 
O2Hb is decreasing at each step (as expected) but it start to levelling off at step5 and step6 is basically at the same level of step5.
My point is that the aerobic engine of the VL is reaching almost the limit at step5.
The huge increase in lactate at step 6 may confirm that the extra energy is coming from other muscles and the glycolitic system + pcr which is now highly involved.


Ruud_G

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 #19 
And being the devils advocate. The lactate measured at the end of step 4 is not very much different from the lactate levels measured in step 5. Although step 5 is done with higher wattage. You might argue end of step 4 and step 5 wattage level might actually be very close to the athletes MLSS. We don't know. It wasn't determined in a "classical" MLSS. But there's hardly any movement (also if you take into account measurement error). We are at that point approaching an SmO2 plateau as Daniel argues and in some of the pics it seems tHb kind of shows a relative plateau as well if you look at the trend. In step 6 tHb goes up again.
Ruud_G

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 #20 
I would take the 4mmol as references for threshold. The Dmax measure not only correlates better but also in absolute sense comes closer to MLSS. I wouldn't be surprised using this might show very similar "anaerobic thresholds" for the two curves measuring beginning and end of measurements in the steps. At the same time. Could be luck [wink]
juergfeldmann

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 #21 
Daniele  , thanks  for coming  back. It is  just me  and  most is not finished  as  many  readers  can see. Either  because we simply have no answer  ro we  can read much  more out  than  what we  for the moment discuss.

Here  to  throw  out  some interesting    sections.

The  quadriceps  is   for many one muscle , but as we see with SEMG  but now as well with NIRS , that the different heads  from the  4 options  really may work  as  one unit  or  sometimes  as  a  kind of let's name it chain reaction.
 Let's step back.  to make it perhaps easier ( perhaps  more  confusing )
Motion. You do a  simple  biceps  curl  with your arm in  zero neutral  shoulder position . So  the main   elbow  flexor is your short biceps  head..
 As you now  work  it out  to a  full  or   as   low  as possible   desaturation( SmO2  low.)  you really  could stop  if that was your  goal   desaturate short biceps  head.
 Now  as  we all have a  " target"  so  15  reaps or  30 seconds  we may not stop , when it actually would make sense  for the biceps .
 No we have to reach the "physical " target   and  forget  that the physiological target  may already been reached ? So  you keep moving the dumbbell but you add a lot  different muscles  to it  from the brachio radialis  as a  helper in  Elbow flexion  to the   whole upper body  and you may start  changing  from an elbow  flexion to a belly  dancer.
 Now you try  at least  to imagine this with a  quadriceps. Each belly  has  an optimal  ability in a  certain  range in your  knee extension.
Here  for interested   readers  what yo can  try . Mount your MOXY on the vastus  medialis.

 Now  do  fist  some knee extension  form  90 degree flexion  to  30 degree flexion, so u you miss the last  30 degrees in the extension.
 Go  as hard  as load as you can go.
 Than  do the last  30 degrees but not the  first  90 - 30. Now look the  SmO2  reaction  or pattern. People who have a  SEMG  can do the same. The result  you will find  will give you some more understanding on what I mean.

Now  you add  the interesting situation  to it   that we have one belly  ) rectus )  who not only is able to support the knee extension, but as well  hip flexion.
 So next practical work.
 Bike  use on  the right side the  toe  clips  and on the left side the  flat pedal  so no option to pull up.
 Check  RF  on both sides  and see , what  or how you respond in a  hard intensity. For people  with power cranks  add this to the experiment.

Next  add to the task the possibility  , that you have  a cardiac limitation. What will an integration of more O2  demanding muscles  create.?

So  this   ends  for the moment with a  summary :
1. Any current  publication in RF  and VL  never take into account  additional  limitation. So the studies  we see  are great  and    show  what they see.
 But there are   different options we tested and found  when looking at interaction between  RF  and VL.


1.  VL  is the  " main worker in a cycling motion when we look at  all 4   quadriceps  heads  but as well when we look in the overall intermuscular options  in  pushing a  pedal
 This leads  to a initial reaction ins SmO2  drop in VL before we see it in other  "helpers.
 This only , it we  can still deliver  enough  O2.
 So  in  cyclists  with a great ability  to integrate under hard  loads  more   leg muscles  you  will find  an  ever increase in VO2   despite a  flat SmO2  as we only  may have the feedback  from VL. . Some  would call it  slow VO2  component. It  has nothing  to  do  with slow or  fact VO2  it has something to  do with  timing. Allow your team members to  try to be involved the performance. That's  why in a  short   duration step test  we   do not see this  "slow " VO2  component. because,  as so  often, we do not allow  all team members  to try  to contribute   if possible to the overall performance. Now  the picture  with see  with  Danieles RF VL  and reactions is   the above   explanation.

2. This is harder to sell but it is  existing.
 We   can get a situation, where we see a  delayed  interaction (SmO2  drop in RF ) as we see in Daniele's example.
 Now   it could be  as explained    1.
 but it  can be an integration of RF  as a part of  the pull up  section of hip flexion.
 To find out , whether  it is  1  or  2  you take  plattform pedal  and do the same  assessment and look what happens  by the same load . RF  drops   with plat  form  it is a part of the   knee extension.  as mentioned.  if it does not  drop than ??????

3. You have a severe delivery limitation like  after  a cardiac  problem  you  can see, that  RF  may in fact shift blood  to VL  like in an involved  and non -involved   situation.

juergfeldmann

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 #22 
Now here to the   6 min step test  and  the reaction in the last  load as explained  by Daniele.
 Here a different take.
 1. Biased    overview  from the start show s exactly that a  biased idea on how   compared to the start ( resting situation the O2Hb  HHb and tHb  behave.
 So  if we have a stable  tHB  than the whole assessment we have a feedback   on how it is  from the start when we compare.
 If we have a change in tHb  ,than we  change the reactions  as we a have  different tHb  at the start of every new  step.
 So when we look  new  and bias the   HHb  O2Hb  and tHb at every  new start of  every new  step    than  we see really how  relative  O2Hb and HHb react. We discussed this once before  where Daniele   showed in an overall biased situation, that  O2Hb  was flat    despite an increase in tHb.
 If we look at the start of a  new step  than it may look different  and a  flat  SmO2  with  an increase in tHb  or  drop in tHb shows  an either less use  of O2  or  a higher use  of  O2  despite a flat  %  SmO2.

 Okay  let's  show it what I mean.

Below the 6 min step test with lactate values  every  3 min.


bias all  wiht lac values.jpg 


Now this is biased  from the start  so all is based on the  tHb  situation at the start.

 Now  below the test  and  the view  how tHb  may change or not.

bias all.jpg


So we have a different tHb  and  what I  do  than is  a  bias   and look in each step.
 Now in this case I do not have  an absolute  exact timing but  close  enough  on a  few  seconds.

bais   4 steps  incl last.jpg 

Now  look  at  HHb  and O2Hb  an d whether they  are symmetrically  so  for each O2  used  you drop  1  O2Hb and increase one HHb  to make it very simple.
 If  you  create  an occlusion so  less or no outflow than we    get a  dis balance between HHb     and O2 Hb  as we  accumulate in the tHb increase more  HHb .
 If we  have a one minute break so no use of  O2  or less  we will see in the tb   increase a  higher incr3ease in O2Hb  than HHb.
  If  we   let  off a little bit in performance w e  will have an increase in tHb    and  an increase in  O2 Hb  compared  to HHb.
 Look at the last step  and you  are the  judge  what  may have happened  there ????

 Elbow   different  reactions as  explained  above  for a visual  review.

 Below  what   is that tHb  reaction  and if you answer   how  do you  back it up ?

field 1 nice occl.jpg 

Now below  what is this  for a tHb  increase  ?

not  this athel  biased colour  plus  end of  load.jpg 

And  what is this as a tHb  drip.  smo2  drop ?
below
bias  D noninv.jpg 

I will come back on this in Bobbys  level 3  discussion of his assessment.

juergfeldmann

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 #23 
Git  a nice mail  with the  question whether    we can  actually somehow  at least   have some back up  about the idea, that  recruitment in a  time lag  may  be connected  to VO2  slow component. The reason  for this  question was , that that would be   too nice  , if  with  NIRS we would in fact be able  to  collect  the VO2  slow component  idea  and show it  live.


Some  would call it  slow VO2  component. It  has nothing  to  do  with slow or  fact VO2  it has something to  do with  timing.



As so often mentioned  we  always look for  possible    support  from accepted   studies   and if we  don  not find them  because  the studies  lack  some  sufficient feedback due to  missed  data collection we  try to show  what we did.
  Here an interesting back  up  for our idea.

Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2007 Aug;293(2):R812-20. Epub 2007 Apr 25.

Thigh muscle activation distribution and pulmonary VO2 kinetics during moderate, heavy, and very heavy intensity cycling exercise in humans.

Endo MY1, Kobayakawa M, Kinugasa R, Kuno S, Akima H, Rossiter HB, Miura A, Fukuba Y.

Author information

  • 1Department of Exercise Science and Physiology, School of Health Sciences, Prefectural University of Hiroshima, 1-1-71, Ujina-higashi, Minami-ku, Hiroshima 734-8558, Japan.

Abstract

The mechanisms underlying the oxygen uptake (Vo(2)) slow component during supra-lactate threshold (supra-LT) exercise are poorly understood. Evidence suggests that the Vo(2) slow component may be caused by progressive muscle recruitment during exercise. We therefore examined whether leg muscle activation patterns [from the transverse relaxation time (T2) of magnetic resonance images] were associated with supra-LT Vo(2) kinetic parameters. Eleven subjects performed 6-min cycle ergometry at moderate (80% LT), heavy (70% between LT and critical power; CP), and very heavy (7% above CP) intensities with breath-by-breath pulmonary Vo(2) measurement. T2 in 10 leg muscles was evaluated at rest and after 3 and 6 min of exercise. During moderate exercise, nine muscles achieved a steady-state T2 by 3 min; only in the vastus medialis did T2 increase further after 6 min. During heavy exercise, T2 in the entire vastus group increased between minutes 3 and 6, and additional increases in T2 were seen in adductor magnus and gracilis during this period of very heavy exercise. The Vo(2) slow component increased with increasing exercise intensity (being functionally zero during moderate exercise). The distribution of T2 was more diverse as supra-LT exercise progressed: T2 variance (ms) increased from 3.6 +/- 0.2 to 6.5 +/- 1.7 between 3 and 6 min of heavy exercise and from 5.5 +/- 0.8 to 12.3 +/- 5.4 in very heavy exercise (rest = 3.1 +/- 0.6). The T2 distribution was significantly correlated with the magnitude of the Vo(2) slow component (P < 0.05). These data are consistent with the notion that the Vo(2) slow component is an expression of progressive muscle recruitment during supra-LT exercise

 

DanieleM

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 #24 
Quote:
If  we   let  off a little bit in performance w e  will have an increase in tHb    and  an increase in  O2 Hb  compared  to HHb.
 Look at the last step  and you  are the  judge  what  may have happened  there ????

In the last step the O2HB is actually increasing and this would confirm that from O2 point of view this athlete VL is at least not consuming more than during previous step.

juergfeldmann

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 #25 
Daniele  you are getting too good. Absolutely  my  answer as well . We  can se how  the biased ( remember we have to bias  at the moment where we see tHb  changes  so when we bias  from the start we   miss this information at the end  in case tHb  really changed.. So  this case is interesting  and Daniele   makes a nice  comment. The VL  at least did not  consume more O2  . Now  if we combine this  with traditional  VO2  in some cases  depending on the step length we  may se no  real increase in VO2  so a kind of a plateau meaning  delivery limitation or we may se a steady increase in VO2 as a sign of a  " a slow " Vo2  component  and additional muscles included  to try to keep the  demanded performance going.
sandor

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 #26 
Quote:
Good morning.
 Still hoping  to get  classical lactate users in to help  to " defend  or  explain, why a 3 min test  gives  the "proper"  performance level  to  train and  use  for  zoning  than  5 min step test.


the short answer is "they don't"

In rowing, step test may be done to record progress (they are far easier to recover from than an all-out 2000 meter test) but the endurance paces are still finalized based on physiological readings 15, 20 or 30 minutes into a steady-state piece.
then monitored for 5-10 minutes post to watch for lag in increased blood markers.

i am much more concerned with my lactate level after 20 minutes of work than after 4 minutes. and even if a step test can give you a starting point every 8-10 weeks, the weekly lactate monitoring after XX time in steady state is how you tweak your training. Now with Moxy, i can do this without blood letting. This is a wonderful change.

The high-intensity stuff, just keep it short & between your 6k/5k race pace & your 2k.
True sprint work won't be necessary until you are in-season. 


the fact is, like Jack Daniel's VDOT, looking at percentages of recent race performance
can give the amateur athlete as good of a starting point  for individualizing a training plan as a step test can.



juergfeldmann

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 #27 
Sandor  as usual great feedback.
 Lactate  and  low  intensity. Yes if we   use lactate we need to  do  2 - 3 sampling in a stable speed  and that what we  did many years back in long slow bike   training. You need 8 plus minute  to have a chance  to have a decent   lactate  level in the systems. One of the problem is  glycogen  situation  so  in a case like we see with Daniele's example  if that happened in  a  endurance  situation  you   have to watch   so you do not get fooled  due to a low  lactate level  despite a  feeling of a higher   intensity.. The much better  combination than is often  blood  sugar  instead of lactate and  it is  actually cheaper.. Another post  load  sampling we did over many years  is ammonia  and  Urea  as an early  and later sign of  protein involvement. We had in the late  1980  a  great super small ammonia  checker  with  very fast feedback similar  as the lactate analyzers  today. We used  that  heavily in rowing as the  lactate analyzer than available  where the YSI  so  complicated in a  8  men  boat  to get  even close to a decent idea on lactate. This  than changed  all with the accusport  from Boehringer  Manheim  and later with  different otehr models   leading  with the lactate Pro.
 Check the first  rower  who really pushed the lactate Pro.
 A  former  world  champion and Olympic  champion  every body  knows. He together  with the rowing Canada  s exercise physiologist  where our  best PR  guys  for  lactate Pro. 

The biggest  challenge  for many endurance  athletes  is  that  they have to learn to find out   how  slow is too fast and how  fast is  too slow.

 This is a combination  of  metabolic demand but much more  as well on  muscular  contraction  work  as   blood flow  and therefor  energy supply  and  as you pointed out exhaust  has to be in a  certain  balance  to  be  sure  you are slow  enough  and not  just  thinking this is slow  as well as s are  you sure  you are fast enough and not just fast.
 Simple example in running.
. When we did   "slow " endurance run  with out top  marathon runners  2. 12  and  faster

 so  for this athletes  a  4 min  run  was  slow a 4.30  slower but  for an average good runner this is  still a  sub 3  h marathon  so looks  fast.
So  if you keep a similar   math going  a  3 hour  so 4.30 /km  runner   if he would  do a  slow run as the top guys  would  have to go around 6.30 km.
 This  just never  happens  they  all go much faster . So their  slow  run is too fast  and than  when they suppose to go fast  they  go far too slow.  Now  with physiological feedback  we  can handle that easy  and live  as we go.


True sprint work won't be necessary until you are in-season.

 
Not  sure about  that  but may depended  what a  " true  " sprint  work is.
 We do a lot  and I say a lot of  sprint  ( coordination  work )  It is they  key  for an efficient  movement in many sports  . Fast  feeds in ice hockey  cross country skiing  and all other sports.
 The question si. Do  you really to   sprint  or  fast coordination work  or  do you   high intensity  work.
 In true sprint  workouts  you try to avoid a high energy consumption   . So again  MOXY will tell you whether you do a sprint  work  or  a hard  all out  work.
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