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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
I like to try to answer here some regular questions.
 Most of the questions now come in from Europe. Here a few examples we  will try to cover with answers or rather with possible suggestions. If the question is very specific I will try to answer directly back over  e mail. If the questions  are general questions, which may interest more readers, I will try to respond on here. Still beautifully would be , if people would ask on the forum, even if it is in french or German or Italian.
Question:
 1. Does  NIRS  replaces VO2 testing ?
2. How can I test my soccer team with NIRS ?
3. Can I use NIRS in a indoor set up ( facility and can I see the live info on a screen ?


Let's start with the Question 1.
 Simple answer  is NO
 NIRS and or  better in our discussion MOXY does not replace a VO2  or any of the current test methods. MOXY enhances all the current test methods and will allow a better understanding on the  information we gather with physiological testing. Depending on your budget and  reason why you test you can design a small up to a professional test center by going step by step through traditional and newer  high tech equipment. It all depends on the reason why you test and the clientele you may see, as well , whether your run it as a hobby or as a  full time income facility.
 So the "Sub question" on the VO2 was, how or what I would choose  for testing ?

 I try to make a list from super easy and super cheap to more and more  sophisticated and more money involved.
  Equipment you need :
 a) Brain  and counting . Example . As a runner you may like to know what speed  you can go to be in a recovery  intensity, than endurance intensity and than race  intensity.

 If you count 6 steps  left = 1/ right = 1   and you breath in  in 6 steps and out in 6 steps and you feel not pressured but great  you are  very very likely in a great recovery intensity..

If you breath 4 in 4 out you are most likely in a basic endurance intensity ( old school would  tell you that you are below 2 mmol lactate ) and when you breath 2 in 2 out you are on race pace. ( considered you do that on a flat surface. )
 Or  if you can easy talk nonstop with your running partner you are  in a recovery or  slow long endurance intensity.
 If you can talk but you are happy  to have a break to listen to the respond you are in a  endurance race intensity . If you can't talk at all you are above race pace..
 This are very old  and even backed up intensities and you  can go  nicely with this ideas.

 b) next first investment you may  do is  to add a HR monitor to it an you have some feedback if properly used  from your feeling / respiratory counting and HR and you can move this  3  bio markers together to get a better idea on what is going on.
 Investment this days for a decent HR monitor  100 $ +-
 Now you can start doing some kind of testing, by running a certain loop in a certain HR range and look at the time.
 If you know  distance you as well  have speed and you can plot your first simple test result by using speed versus HR an you are back in the h olden days of HR and intensity ideas..
 As  everybody this days  knows, HR is a great but has its limitation. If you know the limitation you can easy avoid some wrong conclusion .
C ) next up would be any kind of gadget you can add some additional information like Speed frequency stride or RPM   ( or GPS versions ) now you have  an additional Physical information to add to the physiological information to get more feedback on your  training results and progress or not.
 Price now  may be somewhere between 500 - 1000 $ depending on sport and demands you have.

 From now on it is getting somewhat more into money. So you  make a decision, whether you go to a pro and get tested, or whether you like o buy  the next step up and you can train and test  with the additional toys.
d) In cycling it will be  with no doubt a wattage   equipment. In running this is harder to find. How do you quantify performance in running. Well speed or better time over a certain distance, which in off road situations i hard to do.
 So to look intensity you may have to go and find new ideas.
 Lactate  was or is one of them. Invasive and during workouts  relative inconvenient and  as HR  with some very clear open questions. I can explain if people are asking , how you can use lactate during a workout to have some feedback.
 For testing it is still one of the more "impressive" assessments.
 Possible not because of the values of the result but because Blood is involved so it looks very scientific and gloves are involved so it looks  as a result coming directly from inside out and in some cases you even need a certified professional with a specific  training to be allowed to  take a finger print blood sample. Despite the fact that millions of people of any age and education ( diabetic ) do this  a few times a day.
. Values of the test result ????? ( to much discussed already )
 So we can't get around but to name the next   toy you can add to your equipment.
 MOXY.
 You have already a HR monitor and if you are lucky , that you got a Garmin with ANT+ you can simply add MOXY like any of the gadget to the  equipment.
 Now you have respiration , HR, RPM and oxygenation as a cheap way of having a LAB with you as you run or bike or work out but you can now start to offer in a simple way some very great testing methods to design  individual training programs for endurance intensities but even better for interval individual workouts.
. Next up  would be a VO2 equipment as you get nice once this days  between 7'000 - 15'000 $ with many great features. Can you use it for workouts. Well in the gym yes outside no ( exception portable once ) . Next up is a  sophistic noninvasive cardiac assessment tool ( Physio flow for  Cardiac hemodynamic information and it  can be worn outside in the field.
 And last but not least a  sophisticated NIRS equipment for  in much more in depth information on your oxygenation.  Now you have a great assessment center the way we now have a few in Canada already and a few now as well in Europe an the USA. Hope that helps for some decision making.
Summary:
a) Feeling , listen to your body is not a bad " equipment" to go and start out with and it is cheap. Just healthy food and a decent life style is needed. Next up you look for an information, whether and how you supply the main energy to your body OXYGEN.
 True a HR monitor tells you that your heart is still beating but you do not know  how you supply the energy for it.
 True a wattage trainer will tell you how hard you go, but it does not tell you how long you may last.
 So  no wonder so many people are getting exited about NIRS / MOXY as you now see,  when and where you actually use  and or deliver the O2  you bring in and yo need.  Give it some thoughts.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
. How can I test my soccer team with NIRS ?
We could expand this question to more or less any team sport.
. IN short the answer would be:
 Depending on the amount of MOXY's you have you can test in 15 min  a whole team in soccer, as space is not an issue.
 In Ice hockey, where we gather with Brian Kozak of NEXT Level very valuable inside  we have a little bit of a space limitation as we like to cover all different directional motions on the skates and not just  for and backwards.
 As well in Team sports we make a difference between the just physiological ability ( meaning just skating or just  moving )  and some combination  between physiological  testing  with integrated technical aspects. Same in soccer  we can test with or without a ball or puck.
 What you look for is as well positions your player may play. So a forward in Ice hockey will skate mainly forward , defense man can be tested by doing the  assessment in back ward skating.
 Now in soccer with positions you may have an assessment more focusing on forward positions with short but  all out sprints, versus a more middle field or defense player with different needs for that position.
 Here what we look for the moment, as we develop this game specific assessment.
 We take our own collected information from the last 30 years from different Sports. ( Ice hockey, soccer, track and field, MTB, road cycling, Volleyball, downhill skiing , cross country skiing and so onn  ) compare it with current information and than design a sport specific protocol  to it with assessing values, who can tell us  something important.

 Meaning: In many  of the above sports VO2 max testing is of minimal if any value, when looking on integration of test results to design training programs.
 Lactate  is not far behind and even HR has it s very clear limitation.
 So either a physical information like speed, power  and time is needed combined with a direct physiological information.
 In the past we had some limitation. We  could use since many years NIRS ( portamon )  and Physio flow ) but  for sure for average clubs the  money or price range was one problem and the application than into the workout was the other problem.
 We where able to test and than create out of individual results a approximation into time with all the negative  and open questions, whether  physiology and body  really would react always the same.
 Now we have  direct real live feedback and have the ability to really use the  information from the body to   guide the workouts and even race situations.
 I will show you this into the small details over the weekend from great examples   of a team sport.
 Here   to start what we look and how you can go and design a great physiological protocol in your sport. Th In ice hockey we have now a protocol which will be the golden standard for a while  here in north america but as well in Europe as we start to test there on the ice as well. We  will have in a few month hundreds of results and will be able to see, how much information on strenght and weakness of an athlete we can see and help coaches , managers , agents to see the value of a player as well as the ares, which can be easily improved when   knowing the weaknesses. Here a typical official statistic  but Brina has some much more  reality info  form his many years as player and as one of team most successfully development coaches in ice hickey here in Canada. See att of one official statistic .

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
here JUST A VISUAL TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS GOING.
 first PIC IS THE  VISUAL PROTOCOL ON ICE ASSESSMENT. # SETS OF 3 MIN DURATION WITH A SPECIFIC  ALL OUT EXERCISE AT THE START WITH A STATISTICAL TIME.
 SEC PIC IS THE TREE LOAD OVERLAPPED AT THE INTENSITY STAGE AND AT THE RECOVERY STAGE.  look AT TRENDS OF o2  , WHEN IT IS USED, NOT USED ANYMORE AND  RELOADED , overloading AND BACK TO START LEVELS.  The next  info will show you thsi  visual in actual time numbers and SmO2 numbers. So stay tuned.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 

Thanks for all the fast responses, Again Europe seem to take over here. One question is the use of SmO2 in endurance testing in a class situation.
Just a short inside info.
I just had a student here for 2 weeks from Switzerland introducing to this exact idea. The goal is to make a master work to show how we can assess kids easy and fast to give some fun and optimal information for their particular activity they enjoy doing.
Again if the school either has 10 or more MOXY its and the kids have their simple cheap HR Monitor like a Garmin FR 70 than you can test 10 students as an endurance sport all at the same time or more.
You use a 400m track and one of our old ideas ( time before GPS ) to have student moving in a fix speed similar like on a treadmill .
If each student has a MOXY you have the limitation to 16 or 20 student or team members at the same time. Test length depends on the protocol you choose but you can do it in a simple PE class time.
The information of the the result will take app 10 - 15 min if you are new to the test. What we plan to do is to integrate the interpretation into the class room by integrating this with the Informatics teacher so they run the test result on their own computer.
Step one Download moxy ( Time 30 seconds. Copy and past the cvs file to the MOXY competency center program. 5 seconds.
Push the information tab you like to see 1 second and you have the graphic in front of you. Now you add simple physiological explanations and 15 minute all students understand the idea and concept on how to train depending on their goal setting. If you are interested please mail back and I will sent you the pacer program as we have three different version. Version one was an old version from 1984 on a PB80 Casio calculator.
Version 2 is an old FaCT version down by Herb Chlebek from FaCT -Canada ( not sure whether still available. and
3. a program by Tod Anderson ( high school groups  in BC ) Again if you are interested give me a mail and I can setn you protocol and ideas on hwo to start in english and German.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Back to our case . Here the real numbers from the on ice assessment. You have the NIRS traces in the first info and now here the actual time on how long the player was in what " zone" resp. you can see in simple words  how long the player used  O2 in the load phase and hoe long he was O2 independent  and you can see some very interesting changes  in set 3 , that he actually started to "reload" O2 during the  load phase.
. This information will guide us now to try to change the   energy supply in the load phase. Goal  can be for example a longer deloading phase so  better  ability to deload lower.  Another goal can be to improve the oxygen independent time phase.  and so on. Many  interesting and new aspects and certainly time scheduling for load and rest periods in Interval.  So next up will be an example on how interval workouts  can be done using real physiological information rather than organizational  ideas like 5 sets , 1 min rest and so  on. If you sent   e emails ( thanks so much ) please use the address juergfeldmann@hotmail.com  and not the factquestion address. Cheers Juerg

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
The answer is YES. The YES comes to a few mails I got from users of NIRS  in already existing centers, where the idea to use NIRS is established and successful used.
 Many of this centers use  some different NIRS equipment  and the use of NIRS with MOXY has some clear different applications. One of the biggest step forward is the ability for the athlete to actually go for a workout where ever and actually have the direct feedback as they go ahead . There are some draw backs, for the moment  when you like to use it for demos  during presentations but Fortiori and EUK R & D  is  working on this questions and options.
 Now the question as, whether we  can see as well the trends of O2Hb and HHb as well as the indication of blood volume changes with MOXY.
 This is possible and MOXY competency centers will have options as you can see in this pick , where  the trends are biased so it is much easier to see the relative change of O2 Hb and HHb.
 Red is O2Hb and blue is HHb , brown is tHb . Green is SmO2.  This is a biased  visual from an on ICE assessment done by Next Level ( Brian Kozak ) The live on the watch display as well will not only give you an absolute individual SmO2 values but as well tHb as a trend of changes in blood volume ( Some exeptions as usual)

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
Another now common question.
 How do I know , whether the MOXY is properly fixed.
 There are in many cases some nice tools to  have a proper answer. In sports with extreme impact the QCI Quality control index may be somewhat more difficult to use. But in many sport where we do not have incredible impact the QCI works well. MOXY competency centers will have a nice tool to look critically on the quality of the data collection here a visual  who will help  to assess this part.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Question:
 Can I use the NIRS for endurance  assessments like VO2  or lactate testing .
 b ) can I use the  NIRS for " anaerobic" intensity  workout planning ?

 Answer is YES to both.
. We have  2 protocols systems  . One for a ) and one for b .
 A is for endurance assessment and we named it due to  what we do a stupid name. IPAHD
 It stands as mentioned before  for: Individual physiological assessment of homeostasis disruption.
 With this in mind it explains the assessment in itself.
 We load long enough to have a  possible situation of a homeostasis buildup , than we disrupt this situation  and reload again same  length and load and see based on this  what systems  and how they react to that stimulus.
See pic one as a IPAHD protocol 5/1/5 look at lactate values and the other  respiratory value and see how they react  in the first 5 min  than 1 min rest and repeated second same load 5 min.

 With this  endurance assessment we  will gain information , where your body will need to get  energy O2 independent. This is the HII  ( high interval intensity . Now to find out , how  you use in this intensity the energy sources we than can use an IPAHR. Individual physiological assessment of homeostasis recovery. We basically do the opposite. We load very hard to be sure we will run out of  intramuscular O2  and will need to dig in as well into the O2 independent energy sources.
 What we look here is how long we still can use O2 and when do we still have O2  but we can't used it anymore ( Hypoxic due to the  bio-availability of O2 ) Remember that in many cases we can improve the bio-availability of O2   with  manipulation of the O2 Diss curve with regulating the pCO2. We have many many examples now, where we can show how you can drop SmO2  or increase SmO2  by  simply  using this  idea of O2 Diss curve manipulation. In a training this is easy, as you can train it. It is somewhat harder in a race..
 Now here Pic 2 and  3 as a part of the  MOXY competency center  education   and you can see the protocols for Ice hockey on ICE and you see the different endurance sport general info on the endurance assessment.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #9 
woww that was fast  okay here  one example of the zoning from an interval assessment IPAHR in the ice.
 
Pic 1

 and Pic one  for your to design the intensities based on the endurance assessment and where you would see the  trends. 
Pic 2

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Why  5 min steps in a  classical step test and why 5/1/5 in the IPAHD ?  A  question I get in  a lot. Some give even an answer.
 Do we change to 5 mi  just to be different ?
 Mo not at all but over a few thousands test later we see, that a physiological reaction  needs a certain  time option. So when we like to see, whether the physiological systems react properly we need to give them some time to either reach their limitation or for other system to try to see, whether they can compensate.
  In today's classical assessment tools like lactate and VO2 we test this information all indirectly, meaning that we speculate what may possible happen in the working muscle.
 With NIRS we have it life. This leads to  different conclusions and therefor different  ideas.
 Is 5 min optimal , possibly not but it is for sure better than the 3 min once we understand the delay of  physiological result and data's  in indirect blood gas testing and indirect lactate  information.
 To make the answer somewhat better here from the  real scientist an n indication , that we  not go that off alone with our argumentations.
 

Oxygen uptake during the first minutes of heavy muscular exercise

1.   Per-Olof Åstrand1 and

2.   Bengt Saltin1

+ Author Affiliations

1.    1Department of Physiology, Kungliga Gymnastiska Centralinstitutet, Stockholm, Sweden

Abstract

Oxygen uptake, heart rate, pulmonary ventilation, and blood lactic acid were studied in five subjects performing maximal work on a bicycle ergometer. After a 10-min warming up period work loads were varied so that exhaustion terminated exercise after about 2—8 min. Peak oxygen uptake and heart rate were practically identical (sd 3.1% and 3 beats/minute, respectively) in the experiments. The heavier the work was and the shorter the work time the higher became the pulmonary ventilation. There was a more rapid increase in the functions studied when the heaviest work loads were performed. It is concluded that aerobic capacity can be measured in a work test of from a few up to about 8 min duration, severity of work determining the actual work time necessary. Duration of work in studies of circulation and respiration during submaximal work should exceed 5 min.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #11 
I am just "chatting" for the moment and here an answer I like to  give to everybody.
 Are they other studies, who show that SmO2  is much earlier at its peak or low compared with VO2  testing.
 Answer yes. Here  just a short result answer and there is a reason , why I do not like to publish the full paper here and we may later get back to it.
 So yes you have to believe it is from a study and if you like to ready the study mail  me back please.
 "

RESULTS:

Mean time for race completion was 44.8 ± 0.4 s. VO2 peaked 20 s into the race. In contrast, muscle tissue oxygen saturation (TSI%) decreased and plateau after 8 s. "
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #12 
What are the practical applications of MOXY and the specific assessments  you do ?
This is one of the most asked question I received over the last few weeks including some long  phone calls discussions.
 Thanks to all for the  increasing interests we receive.
One caller yesterday brought it right to the point :
 Education or that we have to educate people. .
 Well  regular readers on this forum and on other forums know my take on education.
 NOT good. as education needs the ability to be able to repeat , what the teacher tells you to repeat.
 What we need is the ability to have people using their brain.
 So no education is not the  way to go , it is the discussion and critical assessment of each of us on what we do , what we did and where we may have some of many un-answered questions.
So to the question of practical application. Here a very practical example.
 We test people on the ice or in a rowing boat or what ever,.
 We load them sport specific and look what we can do better to allow a more efficient and more successful  use of energy supply and demand.
One part besides many other s is the assessment of the bodies ability to create the ATP  with and without O2 supply.
 So in Ice hockey we like to see, how much the player is loosing after 1  2 or 3  shifts of all out  on the ice.
 Question one. How far can he deoxygenate.
 2. How long can he sustain O2 independent energy production with loss of performance.
3. How long does it take him to recover ?
 This three areas are all tested now live as we have with NIRS an immediate information and no delay  like we  would have in any other existing current assessment.
 Again this is  NOT negative  against what we did or still do.
 MOXY is a "value " added product you combine initially with what you do and make up your own mind, whether you still need to take Blood  ( lactate) from your client or whether you still need to put a mask on and whether you can do this on the ice in an efficient way.
 Simple  fight we have between our self.
 Do we look impressive as we have gloves on and are in a big equipment loaded lab , or are we moving science back into the field , where we have a reality check with all mistakes we will have but still much better than what we do.
 Again, A swimmer  is getting a VO2  test on a bike ?????
 A biker is getting a VO2 test on a treadmill ????? A runner is getting tested in a 50 m Pool .
 What is wrong n that pictures ????
 An ice hockey player  has a test on the ice. Here the results.
 Pic 1  different reaction in energy supply and recovery in 3 shifts and after  2 rests.
 Pic 2 The whole picture on the ice. You see the loss of distance in m . between first shift and last shift and best and worst shift.
 All start is considered on the line and you see, where he would be if he could maintain performance.
Pic 3 is 2 extreme examples between same  load but different abilities to maintain performance )2 independent versus impossible to maintain O2 independent energy supply.
 Main reason is a very specific intervention t nature is doing

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #13 
Here a question coming up over the last few weeks.
 When do we  use the IPAHD ( endurance type of assessment for  endurance training profile and when do we use IPHAR  for interval assessment and TIP ?
Answer:
  endurance , respective O2 dependent energy supply as well as energy supply O2 independent are two integrated parts. We believe, that in any sport both sections interlink with each other with the situation, that in some sport  the O2 dependent may be in the fore front and than in other sports the O2 independent. Reality is that both energy supply system  are always active , whether it is an endurance  and or a interval sport.
 As we strongly see trends, that  performance is integrated and regulated over a central system the  situations  is  so, that many of the really interesting and current research on isolated muscle cells may fail the idea, that there may be feedback loops regulated over the CG.. We see since we use NIRS  and  MOXY, that even in a so called " anaerobic" test like a Wingate test the oxygenation resp. the deoxygenation is a major part of  energy supply.
 The end result in wattage does not  explain the  pathways on how the end result got achieved over what energy supply.
 We have test, where the deoxygenation is very very different from one athlete to the next but both push the same wattage ratio at the end of the test.
 This than  exactly triggers the above question.
 So here in short to show you how our ideas  flow into each other.
 We do with all athletes  an IPAHD with 2 different options of a protocol. The end results is an individual TIP ( training intensity Profile )  In this profile see pic. we  end up with the red zone  we call HII. Than we make an IPAHR to verify, how the athlete is supplying energy in the HII and based on this we design the interval workouts in that HII see pic 2 as one individual example of a result of a HII.
 This person has all 4 reactions we can see. Some have only green and orange and some have green to the end of the load and than yellow  and than  orange and some in gilding sports have even orange during the load.
 The trend we see is, that certain athel4tes with some very specific  workouts seem to be able to maintain a much longer hypoxic  zone than others. The future data collection will give us much more inside into this  situation.
 This will start  next week with a test of 170 athletes from the sports of soccer, Basket ball. volley ball and Ice hockey.
 We hope to have end of the year  a series of 1000 test  so we can start to study the impact of different current training ideas on the end result we see in tests. We hope to show many of this case studies here.

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