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bcoddens

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 #1 
Hi All,

I did a workout on my rollers yesterday where my trainer asked me to do the following:

10 min warming up
13 x this interval:
30 sec spinning up from 110 to 160 rpm
3 min rest
10 min cooling down

The I collected looks like this:

Screen Shot 2015-11-03 at 19.01.02.png 

Red is heartbeat
Yellow is power
Blue is Cadence

How could Moxy help with this workout ?

Best Regards,
Bart


Ruud_G

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Posts: 279
 #2 
A.o. You can choose to vary in recovery and load by looking at the Moxy reactions
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #3 
Allow  me  to ask some questions.
 1.What  do you like to achieve  with this  workout.?
2. Why 10 min  warm up  and what is the goal  of this  10 min warm up.
 3.Why 10 min cool down  and why cool down ?
  4  What is the physiological reasoning  of  13  reps ?
 5. What is the reasoning  for  30 seconds  load  and 3 min rest ?

When we use  MOXY  we look for physiological  markers  and  ideas on  why   the body allows us  to  do certain duration  of load  and certain  duration of rest  an why  we  do an x  numbers of  sets. ?
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #4 
Additional question to wattage  users    and all of us.
 What  can we read out of this nice  workout besides  he  did what was ordered ? Do  you had a MOXY on  and if  yes  can you sent the csv  file if you like  to discuss  options  with MOXY  in this  example.?
Thanks
bcoddens

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Posts: 26
 #5 
I don't know why this workout is designed as such.
Ruud, can you comment ?

Best Regards,
Bart
Ruud_G

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Posts: 279
 #6 
Hi Bart. I dont know what the goal of your coach or you was for this workout. And whether (reasoned solely on power) reached that goal
juergfeldmann

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 #7 
Hmmm perhaps  we should ask the coach  what the  idea of the workout  was.
 ?
 It is  for sure a  fun workout  which is  a part of  training as well  and it may  had some ideas behind besides looking great and having  fun
bcoddens

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Posts: 26
 #8 
Hi Juerg,

Here the answers from my coach on your questions:

1/ explosivness, souplesse, mechanical efficiĆ«ncy en on the long run: improve speed
2/ You can also choose to warmup for 15 minutes, goal: heart and body temperature / improve bloodflow to be ready for a more intense load.  Otherwise risk of heart damage / other possible issues.
3/ 13 repeats are the building up, you can go to 20 mins in total.
4/ 30 sec is still anaeroob alactic (without creation of lactic acid).  During the buildup you shouldn't go over the lactic threshold.  The 3 minutes recovery are necessary to rebuild your W' or CP.

Best Regards,
Bart
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #9 
Let's  start with the last  as it is a  great  discussion one.

 30 sec is still anaeroob alactic (without creation of lactic acid).  During the buildup you shouldn't go over the lactic threshold.  The 3 minutes recovery are necessary to rebuild your W' or CP.

We discussed this into  extreme details , that  we need some kind of  studies  showing that this  classical theory  is  backed up  with science  and not just with believe based on a   technology  who  could  not cut down observation to   minimal or below  30 seconds  only.
. In summary  if that  true   than NIRS does  NOT work  as in a  30 second  workout  we use  a lot of  O2  as shown in every single  NIRS observation.
 The term  anaerobe alacticid  comes  from the limitation at that time  to assess  lactate  and  O2  use  locally. So  we  used  VO2  equipment with a lag time  and  blood lactate with a huge lag time. So after  30 seconds  nothing shows  up in t e test equipment  which doe not  proof it is  anaerob  and it is  alacticid.
. So this point , if used  will throw   out  for you any use  of NIRS  equipment as   when you will use nIRS in the same wok rout  you will see a huge  O2  use  or drop in SmO2  and you will have  any way all the  time lactate production. The  term anaeorb alacticid  was used  at a time  when lactic  acid  was bad  ugly  and a  waste product.
 This seems  to be   revied  and most agree that lactate is not  that bad , in fact it may be very important in  energy production as well as on    survival  for a  longer time. No lactate production in a  30 second workout woudl shorten the ability  to  keep performance (  key word  buffer   and energy.    NOW

Don't  take this  as an attack but as  an option to engage in a  very interesting shift in ideas lie this. Share  it with your coach  and see.  don't  fight  either  it works  to engage a  fun discussion or other wise  forget NIRS  and stay  with  what is used  and feel good.  I  do not like to force  or  convince  anybody in what we  do here I just lie to discuss  some interesting  ideas  and share them as we go along.
juergfeldmann

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 #10 

Here  some other critical  questions. The risk  we have as coaches is to make statements . Well not just as  coaches  but as  people in a  kind of  " superior  " positions.
 I run that risk  every day, when I  explain  something to the client   and have to watch very careful, that I not  make a statement to say something    and that something is something I may have no answer. I have to learn to say.

 I  do not know  but i will try to figure out   or I  can say that this is  what is  to my best knowledge. 

2/ You can also choose to warmup for 15 minutes, goal: heart and body temperature / improve bloodflow to be ready for a more intense load.  Otherwise risk of heart damage / other possible issues.

 So here some critical points  and please come back the  same way.

You can also choose to warmup for 15 minutes
 If  I look  from a physiological  point and as  such from a  idea of a training stimulation  I may  choose the warm  up not by  time  frame but by the idea  on what I like to  achieve  with a  " warm up  "  to what I like to avoid  if I  not  " warm up "

So here my point.
a)  warm  and  heart.
 what  does  warm up has to  do with the heart besides the heart  as  to increase CO  when I  start moving.
 It has  with or   without  warm up the  same temperature  and the same ability to extract O2  for  what is needed  for  its own  activity level. Body temperature.
 Warm up  as we  use it  will  in  some cases  depending on the timing  and intensity   shift blood  to different body areas.
 The temperature  has some  influence on  some physiological reactions but as well some negative effect  if  we " warm up too long "  loss of blood volume in the working muscles  due to the needed  to " cool down"


We  could add to a  good point of warm up  joint  " lubrication

improve bloodflow to be ready for a more intense load.  Otherwise risk of heart damage / other possible issues.

 That statement  has two  sides  to discuss.
 1.  Improve  blood  flow   for more intense   loads.

That is  where we run  now  with more and more  information our  old classical ideas into trouble.
 We  accept that lactate is not bad,   in fact it may be  good but we still  have lactate tolerance training  why do we have to tolerate something good.?
 We  cool  down  to get rid  of lactate, when in fact  we  " waste " ENERGY   WHY DO i HAVE TO GET RID  OF A GREAT ENERGY SOURCE BY COOLING DOWN.


Otherwise risk of heart damage / other possible issues.

is a  scary  statement  but  again., if  30 seconds   loads  are  so called anaerobic  alacticid   than we  do not need any cardiac support  hmmmm
 


 How many of this statements  do we do  because  and not  by reason.
 Last example.
 If  I like to  stress utilization  warm up may be very  contra  productive.
On the other side if  I like to  work  with a good delivery  I may  do a  specific  " warm up"  This is  what I mean. The preparation (  warm up )  should be a  targeted  purpose  full  part of the  goal I have in the follow  up  workout  and should support the  goal setting  not hinder the goal setting.
 So I have to consider  different aspect  between  physiological goal setting  and  physiological needed  reactions  to avoid a negative out come   from warm up  of   from not  warming up.  We had  one example  from a track coach somewhere on the forum , where the  warm up  for a  relative short run  was  close to one hour ?   Loud  thinking here but we all do that  and  it helps to look at more careful on statements   and what we do just because. I  do many  treatments   with physiological goals  without  warm ups  to have a better effect.



juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #11 
Now  after this  bad negative  ranting  form my side  here a  more  constructive feedback  on  why  I did  this  questioning.
 When  we do  physiological  goal setting we  try to  use  as much physiological ideas as possible.
 So  I  explained once before.
 In a race  I lie to be as efficient  as possible . In a  workout  ( not all )  I like to be as inefficient  as possible  to create in a  short time a great stimulus.  So when the goal is  to increase or  stimulate  utilization  than I try to  avoid  or  at least reduce  delivery  as much as I  can.

 Now  here is  where we have the problem of  anaerobe alacticid.
 If  I  do  a   load  and  rest  a  load and rest  and the load is  short enough  so I  do not  desaturate to the bottom  and the rest is long enough  so a  resaturate  at least back to base line  or be even higher , than  my workout is a highly aerobic  workout  with lactate build  up So really the opposite  from what I learned .  cookbook  would be 15 seconds load  45  second  rest  = 1 min  so easy  to control  and  repeat  this  10  x  because i have 10 fingers.  So  the  15 seconds  are  nicely supported  by O2  ( see SmO2 trends )  the lactate is   created nicely  but  can be used  as  H + buffer  and  refueling  as the rest is   good enough and the load short enough  so it will not show up in a finger  sample or  anywhere.
 Unseen real !!!  Now  if your goal is  to   push  utilization  but avoid  delivery. than the load  has to be so , that you see a complete occlusion  during the load so explosive  and  fast.
 If you like to  get  delivery going , than you like to  see  venous occlusion only or  only  compression 

 Duration of the load.
a)  complete occlusion. You  like to avoid compression   tHb  drop  and  you like to avoid tHb increase  = venous occlusion, but you like to see a flat tHb  as you really explosive  contract. Than  you see SmO2  dropping  and you stop  
 a) if you loose occlusion strength
b)  if you stop  dropping SmO2.
. Rest As  soon you may be back on baseline ,  if that is the goal  or  you are overshooting  and as  soon you see overshoot  flat or  dropping you go again.
 
How many reps.  as long you keep tHb  quality  going or as long you see over shoot . or depending on sport as long it makes sense  to rest according to the sport. So in ice hockey it is given , in sprint  cross country skiing it is more or less given. In tennis    or  badminton  you  have to be more flexible. but in tennis  new  rule  20 seconds.


 You like  to have a  delivery option  so avoid  art. occlusion.
 Duration,  SmO2    stops  dropping nice regular, rest  as above  back to baseline  or above.  Set reps  number.
 Either you can not  desaturate  down  to  before  or  you do not recovery back up as before  or you  can not  avoid art  occlusion.


 Speed  coordination
Avoid  any occlusion trend,  duration. till you see  occlusion trend sneaking in.
 Rest   overshoot.
 resp  as long you see no   occlusion trend  and have proper overshoot.
 
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