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jschiltz

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 #1 
I started doing a good amount of single leg cycling in an effort to develop some better coordination and strength in some muscles that were shown to be weak or not contributing to my pedal stroke until too late.

Before starting I did an assessment for each leg to figure out at what level of resistance I could maintain a semi fluid pedal stroke while stressing weak areas.

At that resistance my HR is relatively low (approx 50-60% max HR), and my RR is also pretty low.

So far I'm happy with the resistance level, my interval durations, etc.   It seems to be working my hips, hamstrings, etc, but not so much my RF or VL.

Since I am only pedaling with one leg and my delivery is much higher than utilization - the SMO2 levels do not fluctuate that much, and the THB levels grow during the interval (and do not show the drop and rise after).

I may need to place the sensor on a different spot like my hip, hamstring, or glute - the RF might not be the best place.

My question is that in an instance where you are stressing one leg at a time, or one arm - you are likely not going to see the high desaturation levels or really low SM02 levels correct?  

But that doesn't mean you aren't accomplishing your goal right?  

Cause maybe I'm not performing "hypertrophy" training (I'm not looking for giant useless muscles), but if my delivery is higher than utilization and my legs are saturated - this should lead to greater utilization, cappilary density, etc.... THUS.... increasing the capacity of my muscles to generate power, just not making them larger.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of stressing limiters while not stressing other areas, and so far I've been pleased with my ability to work each leg individually really well without raising my HR and RR very high.  Just want to make sure I'm on the right track.
Kotinos

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 #2 
Quote:
My question is that in an instance where you are stressing one leg at a time, or one arm - you are likely not going to see the high desaturation levels or really low SM02 levels correct?


It depends. There are many variables. Quickly.

If you are trying to engage muscles more evenly (perhaps put better: trying to develop a constant power output throughout the spin) then it is hard to desaturate the RF the same as when you are not trying to accomplish this. You are essentially stressing the RF less in order to balance out the pedal stroke.

If you are simply riding hard, with no regard to how constant the power is throughout the cycle, then most definitely you can bring down the SmO2. Way down. It may take a while for you to get there but it can be done. I can dig out some files if there is interest.

Have you given any thought to your setup? On what sort of "bike" are you conducting this workout? Is there a flywheel? How might the setup be influencing the training stimulus? Etc.

Best


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ryinc

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 #3 
Hi Jschiltz

Single leg cycling came up in the respiration as a limiter thread (you might want to have a look at that thread if not done already).

Based on that thread i did a quick experiment - sensor on the right RF. As you can see this did cause significant desaturation in RF muscle (and i could feel that hamstrings, glutes and other muscles were fully engaged than in a normal pedal stroke too so if i had a sensor on those i would have expected to see them desaturate too.


Markup.png 

Cheers
Ryan




Kotinos

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 #4 
Try this.

Use a setup that has a big flywheel or put a 10 pound weight on the unused pedal. For example , use a spin bike. Then select resistance so that the going is hard around 60 RPM.

Best
Vincent

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juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Or  try independent pedals  like  smart cranks  or power cranks on a  normal  outside  bike  so real biking on a  road  with a power mete and   the power meter is  as well left and right independent.
Here a  look back  to the    late  1970  when we did  this with  Prof  Debrunner 

Power pedal  DDR.jpg


Power pedal  from the  former DDR  

jschiltz

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 #6 
Thank you for following up on my original question.  I did see the discussion in the other thread and was following along closely.

My focus during my single leg workouts so far as been to focus on a smooth pedal stroke (as much as possible).  I have been placing the sensor on my rectus femoris.

This is a workout from today.  I did 2 - 5 minute warmup efforts with both legs, then did 5 - 2 minute efforts with my right leg, then 5 - 2 minute efforts with the left leg.  I moved the sensor from one leg to the other to get data from both. 

All recovery intervals were 1 minute, seated position with hands on bars with my sensor leg down at 6 o'clock position.  The non involved leg was positioned on a box.

It makes sense that the left leg efforts feel much more difficult to complete.  The desaturation is more dramatic.   The THB levels are dramatically different between left and right.  Not sure what that means, but I will start looking into it.

I have never done much single leg cycling in the past with training but I'm excited about it now and have made it a large part of my weekday training schedule.  Keeping my HR and RR low while working weak parts of my legs also seems to be a benefit.

Side Note:  my workouts are being done on a Wahoo Kickr training which has a fairly large flywheel.  That I'm sure attributes to the initial drop in SMO2 and THB levels when the effort begins.


Capture.PNG

 
Attached Files
xlsx jschiltz_-_single_leg_-_1-8-17.xlsx (148.67 KB, 6 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #7 



Jason . Thanks  for sharing this great  data. Here  some  thoughts  and graphs   to discuss  for anybody

1. If  we have one single MOXY  and compare , the first article point  is  to never trust  what we see due to possible  placement differences.
 So  after  you did 100 plus  of  this   shifts  and you have  hundred  time  the  same  or similar  trends  you can  be somewhat more  confident  that it is  you  and not the placement  you did.
 Nevertheless we have some  indication where we  can look at the trends   rather than the absolute values.
 When we  talk trends we  can look at  amplitudes  of tHb  and SmO2    and  so on.
 The second part is   we can  take  like in your case HT as  an additional indication  whether we  had a   higher  support  or needed a higher support    of  CO  over  at least  HR  as we know  .
 So here the overlap  of SmO2  first.




overlsp  smo2.jpg


Now  lets look at tHb 

overlsp  tHb.jpg 
N
ow  lets look  at   cardiac support

overlsp  HR.jpg

a
nd last but not least   a view  I often use  as it is  easier  to read  the biased of  right and left

bias  both.jpg
Now  like in SEMG   , if we  do not have the   load    from left  and right  than we have to be careful with the conclusion. If  we know  we  pushed +-  the same load  than it is easier. 








jschiltz

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 #8 
Juerg - just for confirmation purposes - all the loads were exactly the same, at least the loads being applied by the trainer (Wahoo Kickr).  (approx 120 watts)

As a side note - The output by me varied as I think the more uneven pedal stroke created by the single leg cycling interferes with the way the trainer applies or senses the resistance.   This causes a variation between the load applied by the trainer and my output.   Typically with two leg cycling workouts the values are almost identical.   Thats a discussion for a wahoo forum and not a moxy forum though.

I am going to look through some forum posts and try and learn more about what the bias charts mean.  

Also - excellent point in noting the lack of historical data/trends for me.  Consistent placement of the sensor is definitely a big part of this I'm sure.
juergfeldmann

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 #9 
That is a great feedback  and we  can +-  go  from the information that the power out put is  pretty  close  to the same in both legs.
 I will show   some data's  where  we  had different outputs and you can see that in he NIRS  feedback.
Some interesting key points in your data. Look at  recovery  in the biased  versions. Than look at tHb  amplitude  and  think what  that  could indicate. remember  that whine we  used SEMG  and NIRS  the tHb  had in many cases a  direct link  to the motor unit recruitment  from the SEMG feedback.  Now   the next  few  times  you repeat  your workouts  we can compare  the trends  but than  apply a MOXY on the contralateral  arm  and see on whch side  we have a bigger  involvement of  the upper body  to  keep the legs  going .
 Use the   muscle chain  from  left  leg to right  arm  from cycling. If  you  do no know   how it works   ask a  cycling coach  or  perhaps we have  form the many cycling coaches a feedback on here. There is a very distinct muscle pattern  as well in cycling   as a contra lateral  activation  so  right leg  left  arm  and it has t go through the center of gravity  so over  core stability. 
 
juergfeldmann

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 #10 
Here to  add some  great data s  from Europe. Left  and right leg in a  classical VO2  max test
 Here the  data  and  we may  find some time  to look at this closer.
 So   just think through the  2 options  this datas may give  us  and  what we need  to  know  to use them properly.  SmO2 2  is  right leg

smo2  r l.jpg



thb all r and left big.jpg 

jschiltz

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 #11 
The above graphs seem to be tips to help with my other post, so thank you.

It looks like from a dishwasher perspective that early on the left and right leg are doing similar work, then as the load increases the left leg begins to get tired and the blood volume is reducing through muscle contraction force.  Those contractions then continue to the point where it creates an occlusion.  Once the right leg gets tired and the occlusion happens you can see the right leg SM02 value trend down and desaturate to a very low level, also with the THB trending upwards... all indicating its asked to do more
juergfeldmann

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 #12 
Very nice.
Questions:
  Question to  my graphs  but first  to your  answer.
 Move  form  the dishwasher  to  the cook stove  you are ore than ready. Can you see now where you could have ,depending on the goal you stop the workout.?
 Can you see  that SmO2  is not  optimal   without  looking  at  delivery  or  in this  case not delivery.

Now  questions  to  my graphs
1.which is the  " stronger  " or better trained leg .
 To  confirm  this  we  would benefit  from power, but in  the average person  what  do we expect  will  be used to compensate  for a  weaker leg. ?

2. Now  in this case  we  do not see the after  calibration, as this would help  to see, whether we  have a  left and right leg occlusion trend.
 Now in this case we have VO2 data.
. So here will be the fun discussion. ( sorry  VO2 users )

. a) if we have an occlusion trend, so an outflow restriction in both legs, ( Pooling ) what  would we expect to see  in the mask ?? ( indirect feedback  of  what may happens  somewhere in the  body  like lactate is )
  CO2  and  O2  trends  and therefor the  RER  (  some still believe a  VO2  equipment  can  test  for RQ !!!! ) So  no  or  reduce  flow back to the right ventricle  and therefor  to the lungs .
But it is  still in the body  so the  unseen real  with NIRS  but  the  unreal seen in the  mask . 
  So    the interpretation may be ???????  Will go  back to that  if there is interest.

What  does  VO2  data  will tell us in this situation. ?
jschiltz

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 #13 
Can you see now where you could have ,depending on the goal you stop the workout.?
 Can you see  that SmO2  is not  optimal   without  looking  at  delivery  or  in this  case not delivery.   

It looks like I could have stopped after the 3rd effort of my left leg.   The right leg efforts all seemed to rebound/overcompensate.


Now  questions  to  my graphs
1.which is the  " stronger  " or better trained leg .
 To  confirm  this  we  would benefit  from power, but in  the average person  what  do we expect  will  be used to compensate  for a  weaker leg. ?  

I want to say the right leg... but that is just based on the spike in the THB on the left. The fact that the right leg desaturates more could just mean an over use of the muscle the sensor is located.


The VO2/mask questions will need to be answered later.... possibly years from now
juergfeldmann

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 #14 

I want to say the right leg... but that is just based on the spike in the THB on the left. The fact that the right leg desaturates more could just mean an over use of the muscle the sensor is located.

Now  here  a dangerous  cook book. 
 In many cases  when you eat  the  left and right leg assessment  with 2 moxy    and you have  despite some slightly different placement always  the same side in this case the right side  with a lower  SmO2  ( indicating  a potential higher O2   use )  and   you always see a higher tHb, indicating   a higher  blood flow  as blood  may go  where it s  most needed . than we  have often a   sronger leg in front  of  us.
 In most cases  we will use the stronger leg  to  compensate  for the weaker leg   and the only real way  would be to compare  power. Now in our  case here I will show  you   that  later .(
 I have  hundreds  of cases like that  after ACL ops  or  THR  or TKR. So   this  than  can be used  for   workouts. So  this patients  have tuna left and right MOXY . Warm up  wit  simple feeling  and   see by  what intensity they simply  make the easier  choice  and either  push more , because it just happens  or  avoid pushing more on the operated  side  due to discomfort.
 Now  they  can keep  both legs on the pedals  and simply    follow live  the   attempt  to integrate the   operated leg more into he motions  , whether it is   both legs squatting or  cross country  or stepper  or  walking or biking. 

If  the  power  would be  even  and controlled , than  we have to look at  some additional option.
 1. If  all is  equal than the  weaker leg will desaturate more , but  it as well will have a lower tHb  due to  the muscle compression. (  this in contrast  to the   stronger leg which  desaturates  more  but often  tHb is up  due to the  higher delivery  of   blood to this  more optimal trained leg.
 As we push more n the good side and less  or at least not more on the other side we have often this  situation  that as long the CO is  strong enough  to  see this tHB reaction which is very fascinating  how nature works.
 2.  but always keep in mind .Remember the VL  drops  to   low and than flat and the late integration of RF )  that a  less drop in SmO2  could be as well a intermuscular  shift. 

 We see this  nicely  in ACL   operation post ops.
 1. if  they  have a hamstrings  graft  than we see  that  by a  certain load  they  push more with  quadriceps  as  the   hamstrings  may start to get  uncomfortable. 
2. versus  if  they had an  operation based on a patellar  tendon  graft, where they integrate the hamstrings  more  as  the push is now   uncomfortable  from  the  patellar graft.

 Or  in  THR  when  they had  an anterior   intake  for the hip replacement    versus a posterior  or  postero lateral intake . Than we see the difference in  pull or  push  as apart . 
 Now in athletes  if  they have a  difference left and right and  they always push hard  the difference will get  rose  no better.
 Now  you can imagine  if  we use NIRS on one muscle  and based on  the SmO2 trend ( looking  for  a break point and not even taking tHb  into consideration )  and than we  mystically  find  a   mathematical formula and  base the training on this findings  and it was the  weaker leg  or stronger  leg , than you can imagine  what that means  and the  connection with lactate and  NIRS  has   pretty little  to do   with a  training zoning idea  at  all.
 
jschiltz

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 #15 
I want to reply quickly to this because it confuses me alot....

Now  here  a dangerous  cook book. 
 In many cases  when you eat  the  left and right leg assessment  with 2 moxy    and you have  despite some slightly different placement always  the same side in this case the right side  with a lower  SmO2  ( indicating  a potential higher O2   use )  and   you always see a higher tHb, indicating   a higher  blood flow  as blood  may go  where it s  most needed . than we  have often a   sronger leg in front  of  us.  

My left leg shows lower SMO2 and higher THB than right leg... so the above note tells me my left leg is stronger

 
If  the  power  would be  even  and controlled , than  we have to look at  some additional option.   

I would consider my assessment to be controlled since it was performed on a Wahoo Kickr with the resistance set the same for both legs and all intervals.

1. If  all is  equal than the  weaker leg will desaturate more , but  it as well will have a lower tHb  due to  the muscle compression.

Ok... so since my left leg desaturates more but its THB was higher... again this shows my left leg stronger

(  this in contrast  to the   stronger leg which  desaturates  more  but often  tHb is up  due to the  higher delivery  of   blood to this  more optimal trained leg

I'm seeing a trend here.... again.. my left leg desaturated more, and THB was higher... so left leg stronger

2.  but always keep in mind .Remember the VL  drops  to   low and than flat and the late integration of RF )  that a  less drop in SmO2  could be as well a intermuscular  shift. 

So perhaps in terms of engagement I utilize my RF more with my left leg, and rely more heavily on my VL with my right.....

As you pointed out before, with only having one Moxy I should do a few more assessments and see if the trend is consistent.  I will be doing plenty of single leg workouts so I should get the data required.

My strength training workout the other night showed my left leg desaturating less than my right but with more THB... this is definitely a puzzle but fun to learn.

Edit - Was thinking about this on my drive home and was disappointed I didn't ask or point out -  taking into account everything mentioned above - why is my heart rate higher for the left leg efforts if it is the stronger leg?   Also, couldn't higher THB levels also show a occlusion, or a greater occlusion?   I went back and looked at my file and didn't see a super defined trend after the load ended but there was a dip and then recover for the last one or two on the right leg, and 3 out of the 5 for the left.
 
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