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MetaTrainingSST

Development Team Member
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Posts: 2
 #1 
Hello everybody. 

Recenlty, we bough a Moxy Monitor with the idea to change the typical Lactate studio to check Training Zones, and be a bit disruptive with the new technology. 

At the moment, we don't have any bike with powermeter, so we are doing some tests with the treadmill, and we have tried the protocol of: 

  • Maximal and progressive test
  • Up speed every 30 seconds by 0.3 kms/h more. 


Wondering if the inflexion points after the small plato are coincident with the VT1 and VT2.

We have done only 2 tests, and want to try at least to 10 more before offering our test to find trainning zones. 

Instead of the 5-1-5, we are doing this one in running because is faster, and in 20min (excluding the warm-up) we can find the zones. 

Any ideas/suggestions to improve? Have anyone done a similar test to compare with Vo2/lactate? 



This one is from both subjects, only Smo2, only intervals and inverted. 

  graf.jpg 

This one is from only 1 subject, always in VL, and warming up 15 minutes before the test including some intervals, smo2 and Thb, plus recovery time (the last one were only the intervals). 

graf 2.png 

pace test.jpeg 

Any thoughts/suggestions? 

Thanks in advanced! 



bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 196
 #2 
Hi, I have a done similar ramp test too and what I notice is that the inflection points change depending on the load ramp rate.  However, I use HHb as my point of reference as this takes Thb into consideration and it easier to correlate with the load.
 
In my case, the "higher" the load ramp rate is, the least inflection points I see in my HHb.

I believe this might be due to systemic delays and the different activation rate of the energy systems. 

I personally use the ramp test (ramp needs to be 1hour+) to find my O2 training zones. 
  1. The load before the first inflection point is my recovery area as the O2 supply is greater than required. 
  2. The load between the two inflection points is the balance range
  3. The load after the second inflection range is the out of balance range

Note: Training zone interpretation only works if the training load change rate matches the ramp test results. 

As a cyclist, my test starts with a 5 minutes warm-up phase at 30% FTP then it ramps up linearly to 110% FTP .  So 30% to 110% in about one hour.

See previous discussion post: http://forum.moxymonitor.com/post/ramp-test-debate-8331422?pid=1294166220



MetaTrainingSST

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 2
 #3 
Thank you very much bobbyjobling

We are now working luckily in a laboratory with triathletes, we are doing incremental tests of 15 minutes. I can not modify the protocols because they are marked by the laboratory but we are observing that when we compare SMO2 and VO2, the VT1 and VT2 coincide with the inflection points of SM02 and hemoglobin. This week when they send me the results, I will share them.

I believe that in a long test of 1h is not valid, there are many factors that affect the results, muscle fibers fatigued, dehydration, low blood pressure, low levels of muscle glycogen, ....... etc

I have consulted and discussed with several physiologists and doctors, for that reason the protocol created with these arguments that should be:

A warm-up (10-15min) to activate all the systems (nervous, energetic, .....) + A break not very long (5min approx) + a protocol of 15-20min incremental ramp (not stepped)
Short intervals of (30-45 s) with small increments of speed (0.2 Km / h)
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 210
 #4 

Recently I played around quite a lot with lactate and Moxy.

 Moxy gives us advantage of seeing what is happening live, lactate provides single delayed reading.

 In my trials I have noticed completely different results in lactate readings based on how well aerobic vs anaerobic systems are.

 

Example:

2 athletes, one triathlete 60min power about 310W, second athlete 60min power 307W road racer\Crit racer.

 

They both were told to ride 3x6min at their 60 min power with 4min easy spin in between.

 

While first athlete lactate was quite steady 3.7, 4.0, 4.0 second athlete was: 7.1, 4.5, 4.3

 

I think ideally to address both anaerobic and aerobic systems and largest population of athletes, we would need to ask them to do 2 separate tests (longer\easier, and shorter\harder), one for each system.

And even then we will have variations depending on how well trained particular person is.

 

For well train athlete 60 min ramp to  is quite easy to do if we start at 30%, for somebody that is not trained, it might be very hard (right there indication of weak aerobic system?)

 

I don’t think there is one perfect “test” to do if we have diverse athlete population, as long as you are consistent and perform the test the same way on large enough population, you will learn how to read it and apply in to your training regime, then you will be able to judge based on current users all new users. It might be easier if you are working with single group of people eg: Triathletes, Track Racers, etc.

 

5-1-5 is quite good assessment it covers surprisingly a lot and it takes only 60 min, if you can’t spend 60min for test what is the point of training?

 

Creating training zones with Moxy and ramp might now work in daily training all the time in all cases (I was successful in many cases but also unsuccessful in quite a few).

I found day to day fitness variations might sometimes lead to workouts not finished the way they should be when controlled by power not Moxy

 

Here is completely not Moxy related example.

 

PowerTap P1 pedals, sometimes right pedal is missing and power is provided by left pedal only. Variations in L/R leg is 5% Left leg is weaker, I can’t complete some of the hard workouts, looking at Moxy only I can always complete them. For months I thought I just had a bad day…then Moxy showed me I’m working way too hard on those days.

 

I think we also need to ask the fundamental question, who our athletes are? How many hours a week do they train? What do they eat?

 

Somebody that trains 3 hours a week, will be training differently from someone that trains 12 or 24 hours.

 

Someone that trains 3-4 hours a week needs tests design to start so he will not get injured, performance gains are totally secondary in this case, he will get better regardless since he just started to train, injury prevention should be the main point in my opinion…, others that train 15-20 hours might need more than one test to really find out how to maximize their training time based on their goals.

 

Chase for “Sweet Spot” zone\s, is completely moving target.

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