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Stuart percival

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Posts: 74
 #1 
Hi Guys
collected data from my first Moxy rowing assessment.
young Male-16
concept 2 rower
5-1-5 protocol
2 min calibration-sat relaxed with legs extended-same potion in 1 min breaks
100W--150W--200W--250W
MOXY placement VL, RF and deltoid

considered intercostal 7/8 as best practice but kept it simple first time.

 
Attached Files
pdf allyEaves moxy graphs.pdf (134.66 KB, 31 views)
pdf allyEaves sm02 moxy graphs.pdf (135.56 KB, 31 views)
xlsx allyEaves moxy graphs.xlsx (871.10 KB, 30 views)

ryinc

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Posts: 349
 #2 
Hi Stuart,

Thanks for sharing, nice to see some other case studies beyond cycling.

My thoughts are cardiac limiter (probably SV):
  • Overall HR trend, and HR trend across equal intensity/recovery, HR trend within each load - never seemed to settle to me at any point in the assessment.
  • Drops in tHb on deltoid in recovery, while overshoots in RF and VL are not much above baseline until very late in the assessment
  • Overall trend of tHB on deltoid
What are your thoughts?

Cheers
Ryan
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
On  what  delta    portion   was the moxy  attached.
 What  rowing  style  did  he used ?
 In rowing  we   use  if  we have three   MOXYs   one on  a  lower   body priority muscle  one on  the    trunk  and one on  an upper   body  arm priority muscle  so we  can see,whether he changes  the  rowing style  as he   increases intensity.  Great work  here. See  discussion ion the  forum on this  topic  from a  while back
juergfeldmann

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 #4 
ryinc
 Agree.
 Competition between  arms  and legs  or better between  legs  and arms  and arms loose ,   so to maintain BP  he shifts  blood  and he  has to  create  an upper body vasoconstriction at rest to maintain BP. Cardiac limiter  with a limitation in stroke  volume as ryinc identifies.

Fro  rowing coaches  zoom in at the  stop and start of  any  1 min rest and you see  his  inter muscular coordination pattern. What is  he doing or with  what body  section or   muscles of  the three  we have  he is initiating the motion.  ?
Stuart percival

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Posts: 74
 #5 
Thanks guys
Just back from a short break so I'll add my thoughts tomorrow
I took some video to help with this analysis but struggling to upload ? Any ideas ?

Also Juerg - I used the acromial deltoid
juergfeldmann

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 #6 
we are talking a lot    of  intermuscular coordination. The delta muscle is a  nice one as well as he has  different functions  and  depending on changes in technique  planned or unplanned  you can change  the  different   sections. 

Here  just so we talk  from the same   function  when we  talk about  different  MOXY placements.
 Here  the easier  way  when we  take  anatomical points  and names out.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/585c2e6eff7c508079add174/t/58cab813f7e0ab3926061832/1489680410860/?format=1000w


and here  the functions  in a  simple  way.

http://www.ehealthstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Deltoid-muscle.jpg

(Roger replaced the images with links to make sure we stay on the good side of the copyright people)

Stuart percival

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Posts: 74
 #7 
Fro  rowing coaches  zoom in at the  stop and start of  any  1 min rest and you see  his  inter muscular coordination pattern. What is  he doing or with  what body  section or   muscles of  the three  we have  he is initiating the motion.  ?

I will add some graphs tomorrow but I was playing earlier and I think he initiates with legs - at least in the interval I looked at

I agree with Cardiac limiter

Some thoughts:
He starts to get in trouble mid way through interval 4- VL is dominant and it looks like RF has to help out halfway through?
Interval 5 - so the first at 200W- the VL is still ok for 02 delivery but RF and DELT seem to be redirecting to help out? HR much higher (but we think not SV)
What I am curious about (my first row guy) is technique- Is the VL doing too much work? Should we try to change technique to use more upper body and less legs
Do we need to strengthen the legs? Bit better intermuscular coordination ?

I will test this guy again so would like to do a trunk placement - Where is best here Juerg?

Also sEMG will soon be available to us

Plus I can use V02 next time
 
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #8 
Sounds  great  . VL  intercostal 7 / 8  and rear  posterior  delta.
 The    lateral  or   acromial  delta in a proper  rowing  is   not very involved
What style  does  he   train on, see the three common ideas  in the rowing  community.
Stuart percival

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Posts: 74
 #9 
Hi J
I know about the 7/8 IC placement from previous posts BUT
where would I place the Moxy on the athletes back or front or side of thorax?


juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #10 
when  we  fix  SEMG  or MOXY  or  any NIRS in that respect  on a  target muscle  always look the anatomy  whether  you just choose  the location but the  depth penetration si not  here as  the target muscle  may bee covered  by another one. look at  the  example  of  rhomboid  and trapezius   pars  horizontalis. Now   use the same criteria  when you decide  to place  a  MOXY on a intercostal muscle  as a  part of  the  respiratory feedback  and ass  such as a part of  corre reaction. . Now  using this   ideas  will pace    the MOXY properly. This will be very important   once  you use  SEMG  placements. Go back to a  webinar on bike fitting  where  there is  the discussion on  quadratus lumborum  SEMG placement . Is  it that easy and  that clear ?
Stuart percival

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Posts: 74
 #11 
Hi Juerg

Yes - in my mind its fairly simple to 'choose' the muscle - initially I consider the biomechanics of the sport and then choose my muscles, next you need to be sure of the anatomical position to be sure you are actually measuring that muscle.

My question was because you were very specific about 7/8th intercostal - I was unsure if you were assessing the IC muscle itself or using this as a landmark for another muscle - So i presume its the actual IC muscle and this point because there are no overlying muscles here?
Which I guess would mean a ventral or lateral type placement?
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #12 
Stuart  yes  we use  IC  for  feedback on the respiration and indirectly as a feedback on core  pattern  mainly in sports like rowing and  cross country skiing   in endurance  type  of activity  but very often in sports like tennis  , badminton but as well  volley ball or  soccer. 
If  you do  respiratory assessments  use   IC  and add  some additional  auxiliary  muscles  to it like  scaleni  or  sterno  as  they give you feedback on  change  from priority inspiration to non priority inspiration in  exercise    induced  asthma  and COPD  or  in general in respiration assessments.
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