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Ruud_G

Development Team Member
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 #46 
What I find very interesting to see is that during the load thb is either rather flat (and smo2 down => arterial occlusion?) or sligthly increasing. If I look at data from myself Thb immediately drops as soon as I push out a high (wattage)load.
DanieleM

Development Team Member
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Posts: 264
 #47 
Hi Ruud,

yes I'm also thinkng about a sort of occlusion (sometimes tHB is flat and sometimes rises). The behaviour is not always the same during the different loads.
Sometimes there is a kind of spike after 30 sec or so .

Daniele
DanieleM

Development Team Member
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Posts: 264
 #48 
I think it could be useful to make an analysis of these series.
I will try my own analysis but of course I would need confirmation if correct or wrong.
First 3 loads.
Load#1
wingate1.png 
Being the first load, I applied a good (for me) power.
SmO2 decreases during the first part then stays flat and remains there for few seconds after the load is over. It could probably be a large involvement of O2 independent sources and need to balance H+/CO2 before SmO2 can start recovering.
tHB increases during the load as a sign of venous occlusion (good force applied).

Load#2
wingate2.png 
Power is lower than before and tHB is now almost flat.
Force applied is now lower than in load#1 and not causing the venous occlusion.
SmO2 keeps decreasing during the load (more O2 system involved compared to first load).

Load #3
wingate3.png 
This section was slightly uphill.
Strong start and tHB is rising fast at the beginning (venous occlusion), then I could not maintain that kind of force and tHB started to drop (venous occlusion reduced/flow out).
A short of spike of power after 20 seconds and again tHB slightly increasing and then decreases again.
SmO2 drops fast at the start.
Again flat after the load for approximately 10 seconds (balance H+/CO2), then fast recovery, faster then previous load, perhaps delivery system is now well up and running.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #49 
Daniele, Thanks  for your polite  but  great email. Yes I am behind, Do I have  an excuse, ( ha ha   we always can find one  so here a cheap one  ) Spring  arrived  early here in the North of Canada  so  busy   getting the  food  production ready  for  next  fall to  take in.

goats.jpg

  I  reviewed your incredible  great summary of your  30 sec  all out  from above. I did  this over and over gain  and was hoping I  could add some more ideas to it , BUT  you are  great  so  nothing really to add of  major different ideas.
 I  can try to show you  how I  looked  at it  and  tell you some ideas  I use , when doing  any kind of all out workouts  for  any sport.

 Now , we have to keep in mind,  that in many sports  we do not  have the option of  optimal   feedback on performance like in cycling ( wattage). So this is where  sports  with performance   collections  in an objective way , have  some   very nice   advantages.

 On the other side having wattage can create some  narrow minded ideas upon  what  physiological performance  is  .
 Remember the many discussions we all have  , when we argue  what is better , wattage or HR  or wattage   or lactate  and now  we  add  wattage  and  MOXY.
 I think this  discussion is more about  EGO than  actually  of  any  value.
 Optimal is, when we  have  as  much information as possible  from physical feed backs  like RPM  and wattage  and left and right wattage  and so  on  and  combine this with physiological markers  and than we  have  YES  many open  questions  but   hopefully as well many great answers..
 Summary : The same wattage is not always the same  physiological stimulation.  I like to take an example  form Daniele's  great  30 all workout . see below.
closer look at smo2  thb in 2  loads.jpg 
Green as usual  SmO2  %  and  brown tHb trend information. You can see high lighted  the load   when Daniele  push  all out    the  +-  30 seconds.
tHb  gives an interesting feedback on the " quality"  of the  load  respective the  force  you may apply  during any load.
 You can see in the first load  the  " force"  was applied  very different than in the second load. I  do not  compered the wattage,  but it can be done.
 What  for me is more fun to watch is, that despite  a   subjective all out  load  we have a very different reaction  which is  applied on the delivery  system or the " exhaust system."
 In the first load  we have inflow and out flow  and therefor the stimulation during that load is  different than in the second  load , where we seem to have still inflow  but  reduced  for  sure, or perhaps no  outflow. So think what that means in the way how energy  is  produced  and  how long it  may be produced  and  what may  have to kick in to  stop the risk of  not surviving the load.  In cycling one  specific  position in aero  downhill may in fact create  an  inflow  and outflow  problem  and as  such a problem, when you have to go back  and may have to attack or  try to close  a gap. So  how much benefit  was  it to be in this optimal aero position and how  much  disadvantage did  I  handled  in  . So  what is the outcome  of it  ?

Now  below  look  closer  when we   show HHb  and O2Hb  and tHb.
closer look at o2hb  and hhb  and thb in 2  loads.jpg 
 Now  if we look even closer  than  I  try to think  in the  way I show below.

closer look SmO2  reaction.jpg
 What is the practical application. When we  do live  MOXY feedback  we  try to repeat the same  situation in delivery option or in outflow  options  so we know  we always  or  at least nearly always  apply  for the current planned  workout the same physiological stimulation.
 Below  an easier  workout  or in other words a workout , where we try  to maintain and out flow.
easy load.jpg 

than  below  a  workout  with limited or now  outflow  and  start to  even limit inflow.

hard load.jpg

 So  the limitation is  very different  depending how you load , even if it is the same  performance.
 So in many sports  as mentioned ,this is  the only  way we  can " repeat " the same  physiological load  and in all activities  we  may have a very different physical load but still the same physiological stimulation.
 Hope this makes  some sense,  as it is a very different way  we  will look in the future  on how  we  plan  and apply  training loads. Again  if you can combine it with  wattage in  cycling that is   really great.
 What  we may have to learn in cycling  , that there is no  wattage Gospel  nor is there a MOXY  gospel. That's'  why we  do not have a  training bible ,but just some great conversation  as we  all  are  far off  form knowing the  end of this  interesting development. !0 years back  when we discussed this we  had  not  a lot  of  positive  feedback's.Today we are  swamped  with very positive  constructive   mails  like the  one  from Daniele  and from so  many  readers on our  open  minded  forum.
 . Important
. We ,  me  included , have to learn a lot  and we  best learn  form each other  by  having an  open  and  fair  challenge  on all what we do.
Daniele  Thanks for your  reminder

DanieleM

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 264
 #50 
Hi Juerg, first of all with that beautiful picture all excuses are good [smile]

Your point about the different tHB during load 6 and 7 made me think to further suggestions.
As I wrote, I did not use the same part of the road to execute the intervals, and this may give some hints.
I then added a couple of more graph with Rpm (blue) and Bpm (red).
Please note that the rpm are calculated by the powertap and sometimes shows some spikes which are not real.
Load#6
wg_6.png 
This section was uphill but immediately proceeded by a short downhill section.
I then started quite strongly (800W) but immediately at a very high frequency (100 rpm) so the force applied is not that strong to cause a venous occlusion , which instead seems to appear later with a short peak of power at less rpm.
The SmO2 also keeps dropping after the load is over (O2 diss. to the right)? and may explain why SmO2 did not fully recover before the next interval.
HR is also peaking 10 seconds later.

Load#7
wg_7.png 
This section was flat and I did start with a lower rpm and therefore higher force applied and this has probably caused the venous occlusion trend.



Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #51 
Nothing  I could add   as a smart responds  but only as a time filler. So I  only  can ask. When  can we hire  you as a MOXY  expert "  smile " this is  what I was  since years  hoping  for. A  great  discussion  with  an open mind  to see, that   exercise or training  can be  of incredible fun when starting to look further than  just a cook book and performance, but what incredible option the physiological systems  have to adjust and apply  at the right time an optimal response.
 On the other side  it shows you  how we  have to be careful , when discussing what suppose to be  an optimal RPM  or  crank  arm length  . You can see  there is no  solution but there is in fact  an individual  assessment ability to see, what  for the moment  is the most effective or efficient  way  for you to use  as RPM  and how long and where in a race  or a  workout.
Than comes the  sometimes  not very logical part.
  a) in a race you like to be as efficient  as possible.
b ) in a  workout you like to create inefficient  loads to stimulate  so you will be  than  more efficient.( Inefficient loads are not to be confused with high intensity loads.  High intensity loads will force your body to be efficient to survive and you really have no choice to decide  what you like to  stimulate. it simply happens  without  your planned ideas . For  example SV could be lower  as your  muscle strength  limitation may  create a   reduced   venous return. So  If you like to push SV  in this case the  high intensity  may not  achieve that part at  all, despite  claims  from cook books. Low   intensities do not create a  stress reaction for survival  and you make a  planned   effort  to create a very specific  stimulation normally not  to be achieved in this low intensity. ) Example; Create a utilization limitation  in  an intensity , where you normally have a  very  high delivery  situation so you never would  have a utilization limitation. So  de-oxygenate  by  100 watt, where you normally would  easy see an increase in SmO2  to a very high SmO2   level. See below  a  live  workout Se  the   cardiac  HR  load  by 2000 - 3000  time   axis Hr is around 125  and relative stable SmO2  , for us  just in STEI  " zone)  on that  day. Wattage is  unimportant  . To confirm STEI intensity  we did  an additional 10 min load  and you see HR increases  as a  compensation  for CO  but despite the compensation we have  a drop of SmO2 indicating, that the compensator is not able  to  do  his  job sufficient. You can see why  look at tHb  . In STEI  nicely stable  so good  SV  and stable HR  or relative stable HR. Than  drop in  tHB  due to muscular limitation in this athlete  so   SV will drop  and HR  has  to try to compensate  for needed CO but is NOT able to do that..
 So  if  we push hard in this  FEI,  what do we  achieve ?
  Goal for the workout is  a  high  SV as possible  and   still a  big  de-oxygenation as possible  to  train O2 use  under high intensity situation. So we reduce the load   even below  STEI load you can see  what we achieved  with reducing  load  . HR  +-  125  SmO2  much higher  as before  and tHb   as well  so optimal  preload  so optimal SV  stimulation  and  optimal   oxygenation  with a lower  de-oxygenation  than in a higher intensity  by a higher HR  but a much lower SV.

10 min  to level 4 leg  3 march plus  co2.jpg     
 Using performance is a good way to control whether I am inefficient  in a  way, that I  can change  physiological reactions  by the same load and see,  what is more efficient than the other.
 I can therefor  use  for example 100 watts  to create a very inefficient  delivery  and therefor  stimulate  a  more efficient utilization.
 I do NOT need to push  400 watts  to create that stimulation.  Yes  if I push 400 watts  the  stimulation will come as it has to be that way. By 100 watt I choose to  do  it , when ever I like without   having to   follow  the bodies  demand for this reaction.
 Hope this crazy idea makes sense. Thanks  again  for that wonderful and great feedback.

DanieleM

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 264
 #52 
I have repeated a similar workout/test.
This time moxy was placed on the rectus femoris and I choose exactly the same section of the road (gentle uphill starting from low velocity/rpm).
5x30sec All Out with two minutes recovery.
Unfortunately there are some 0s on the moxy outputs during the hard loads (perhaps it was not perfectly fixed to handle the massive movement).
Still, with some interpolation, I guess can give some interesting information.
This is the main part of workout with the 5 loads.

wingatex5_rectus.png 
raw csv attached of the entire workout.

 
Attached Files
csv IpBike_223.csv (466.83 KB, 11 views)

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