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CraigMahony

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 #46 
Ryan, looking back at both your graph and sebo's it seems you had a higher HR. This may give an indication of the comparative difficulty of the load and whether reducing flow to some body parts was, or was not, required to protect BP.
sebo2000

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 #47 

I just absolutely love this place and all the fine people in it.

 Because of this simple exercise and questions/comments from Juerg, I just understood occlusion concept Lights are flashing now, despite the fact it might actually not be occlusion in this case.

 I think if used Moxy properly one could really define not only cardiac daily recovery, but what’s more exciting: long term cardiac strength together with muscular strength. The protocol would have to be consistent, I don’t think simple calibration/warmup of 10min would be precise enough, but Oxy 30min workout with few stops after 25-30min could really tell us a lot after we gather enough of data from the same spot. We could easily see if Cardiac is improving, SLD could be used for that as well it would just change scale to be more/less granular.

 my csv is attached

I’m using Kickr in ERG mode so I set kickr to 100W and it keeps 100W for me, there is fly wheel but it does not move pedals, flywheel is there to keep the consistent load.

@Rayan, I didn’t have to pull during SLD, I was pushing and applying power very similar like in DLD but obviously there is a difference between the two.

This was very easy workout in full on OXY zone, I didn't have to pull, only push with "mud scraping motion" pulling with hamstrings will surly affect tHb, I will try to do small experiment tonight and report back.

 
Attached Files
csv SLD.csv (94.95 KB, 4 views)

jschiltz

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 #48 
I've been following this thread pretty closely because a lot of it relates to things I've been doing as well.   

Just to verify a few things:
- the main purpose of the discussion is to evaluate single leg cycling vs. two leg cycling as it relates to respiratory and cardiac stress ??

As I understand it single leg cycling is good for efficiency improvement - both in development of mitochondria/cappillaries, but also muscular strength because it forces improvements in the potentially under utilized muscles like hamstrings, rectus femoris, etc.   Single Leg cycling accomplishes this without stressing the respiratory or cardiac system because of the isolated muscle engagement of one leg.   Please confirm.


I wanted to do a comparison this week or weekend for myself where I compare say 100 watts with single leg, vs. 200 watts double leg and see what the difference in HR is. 



ryinc

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 #49 
Jc, the thread actually started off about respiration as a limiter. As with all threads on the forum, they sometimes go in different directions. Single leg drills as a mechanism to protect cardiopulmonary system (or not oberload it if fatigued) has only been one of the mini-threads through the thread.

For your experiment can i suggest that you try do the same experiment as what Sebo and I performed - so that we then have three identical asessment data points.

The experiment was
- moxy on right rf
- 3 min calibration
- 100w (range 33-37% ftp) both legs 5 min
- 150w (range 50-56% ftp) both legs 5 min
- 200w (range 66-75% ftp) both legs 5 min
- 100w single leg, right leg 90 seconds
- 200w both legs 2 min
-100w single leg 1 left leg 90 seconds
- 200w both legs 2 min
- 1 min break
- 100w both legs 5 min
- 100w single right leg 90 secs
- 100w both legs 2min
- 100w single left 90 secs
- 100w both legs and 2 min
juergfeldmann

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 #50 
You guys  are  great  lot  of  fun  on here  and we will push  much further, as we go along. Fun  to see I am not  the only  crazy  guy in the kitchen.
juergfeldmann

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 #51 
Sebo 
  I think if used Moxy properly one could really define not only cardiac daily recovery, but what’s more exciting: long term cardiac strength together with muscular strength. The protocol would have to be consistent, I don’t think simple calibration/warmup of 10min would be precise enough, but Oxy 30min workout with few stops after 25-30min could really tell us a lot after we gather enough of data from the same spot. We could easily see if Cardiac is improving, SLD could be used for that as well it would just change scale to be more/less granular.

Absolutely  that is  exactly  ho I use it sine  many ears  and  with the  many collection  you will see  relative easy and fast in a  warm  up "  on a  certain day what is going on  with the different systems.  Just see your  e mail . will sent  you some ideas to that  question hopefully today  running behind here. 


ryinc

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Posts: 369
 #52 
here is jschiltz's experiment - i am posting because he asked me to do the graph in the same format as what i had previously posted. "RL" (right leg) and "LL" (left leg) are the single leg intervals.

Thanks to him for being willing to add to the data here.

JS Single Leg Experiment Chart.png 

Cheers
Ryan

sebo2000

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 #53 
Thanks a lot Ryan and jschiltz this is fantastic !!!

This graph is almost the same as my experiment, was the Moxy on RF, if yes I have a lot of work in front of me to start using it more, but at the same time there is probably a lot of "hidden power" still to explore [smile]
Moxy really shows nicely systemic trends it is fascinating to see this.

Anyone has some other ideas that do not let him sleep and want to confirm, I'm ready to do some workouts, after all the more we experiment the better we will be.






jschiltz

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 #54 
Thanks Ryan for putting that graph together.  It definitely is much better than the one I had started....

There is definitely value in using the same experiment and then seeing the different reactions, especially for me as a new moxy user.

Now for me to look back through this thread for bits of information and try to interpret my own data.  

I did attach the raw excel file to this in case anyone wanted to see it.

 
Attached Files
xlsx jschiltz_-_moxy_forum_workout_-_#perfpro_-_2017-01-12-06-58-53.3dp.xlsx (536.60 KB, 4 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #55 
Nice  work  with the  biceps  and yes  nice occlusion illustration.  A nice  way  to show it as well and a great idea  I may  pass on  for a  software  we are  working on  to   look at the   mirror  way. 

There is one interesting  part we  have  to look once in a  while.
  
a) occlusion ,or better outflow restriction ,create a pooling  where we  still have  free in flow of  O2Hb  but restricted   and  reduced  outflow of  HHb . The result is  the  increase in tHb   due to mainly  reduced outflow  and  or pooling of HHb as in the picture  above. Now  BP   is a  feedback on  venous and arterial  information as most  know. So  when you do a BP  measurement  you can feel  initially  the increase in pressure  from the cuff , which  than,  at a certain point  is  as well added  with a pulse  feeling. That is when the increase in pressure hits  the venous pressure level  and now blood  pulsates  in, but  bangs  against the  closed   venous system  and that is  where you feel the   pulsation , As  the pressure cuff  keeps  going up  the pulsating  disappears  and  you simply feel a  high pressure. Now  for test  measurement  the  cuff lets  air  out  and  you  can hear  or feel  again as the pressure goes  down  the  pulsating as soon  the   CO  pressure is more than  the cuff pressure  and  that is your art.  BP , as the air  keeps leaking out  the pulsating is getting less and less and the sound  is less and  at the moment  you have no sound  and or feeling we have again free flow  and the last   sound or pressure feeling on the  way  down is  your venous  BP.


Now  there is a  small problem

 I  can have  an increase in tHb  and a  small increase in HHB  but  it is NOT  an occlusion.
 It is a  picture  we can see  in respiratory limitation as you add  a higher CO2  so more  HHb  ,but as well due to the higher CO2  a  right  shift   of the O2  disscurve  and a  drop in SpO2 meaning the blood coming in  is not as  nicely  loaded  with  O2   than  when SpO2  is up,  so we have  an increase in HHb.  Now  CO2  is a  good  vasodilatator  and  tHb  can go up ,  as we now have CO  and CO2  pairing up  and  have  it easier to overrule  the  muscle compression.

 How   do I differentiate ?
Again  with  tHb  , as it is much easier , but I can  use  SmO2  as a  back up help.
 
a)  Occlusion. You stop suddenly , so no more muscle compression  but  same  CO  than thB will drop.
 b)  respiratory limitation . I stop  so no more muscle contraction  and still same CO,  but as well  for  30 - 45 seconds,  depending in the VE  of the  client  ,still vasodilatation  and no pooling so  tHb immediately increases.
.
 a)  occlusion   tHb   drops in the stop  and SmO2  immediately increases.
b)  respiratory  limitation : tHb   increases  after the stop  fast  and  SmO2  hesitates  till  we are   more or less   at least locally  on a base line  CO2 level.

 Now  as usual add on. If  it is a severe   VE limitation ,so   we  have a lot  of  muscles involved , like in  rowing or  cross country skiing ,  we  will see the same reaction in  a , as the reaction of higher CO2  is  now  strong  systemically.

Now  add on. If  the athlete pushed  all out,  than we have  some   problems  and priority  will win,  which is   central  pressure  so BP protection.

Now  you see this best in  world class  sports  like cross country  and  triathlon and rowing.
 Interestingly enough  the top athletes often collapse  at the end  despite possibly  being super "  fit"  All three sports  have  the tendency  to train a lot   ( A  LOT ) of  LSD  so incredible  muscular development of  vascular  ability and  utilization. Far more  than in most cases . CO  can handle  to deliver nor  can   CO  handle a too much vasodilatation  from so many  muscles,  who ask  for O2. The   survival  part is in an end phase, that  their  intramuscular  activities are   so high that  the  muscle compression   helps   actually to  avoid  BP  collapse  till,  they  pass the finish line  now  all   muscles stop supporting from the activity  the  BP  due  to muscle compression as well as  metaboreflex is gone  and  the  sudden stop  creates   risk  for  BP  and the best way to increase SV  and   avoid    working  against  gravity is  flat on the floor.
. The breath is  where we see than  which of  the athletes  really pushed  the  cardiac  and respiration over   the  max  limit.
 If  it was just breathing  they  very  early will go up  as soon  CO2 is balanced  and the vasodilatation effect of CO2  is gone,  now  going up increase  muscle compression and they feel much better  to move  easy.
 If  they  pushed  the cardiac  as well , than  they will stay much longer  down  as   the respiration  is to ineffective  and CO2  balance  takes longer. Standing up too early   would  drop  blood  down ( gravity )  and BP  at risk again.So super easy to  show  with a capno meter.
 There are  2 very   great triathlon  brothers ,  who show  this  cardiac  and respiratory limitation but nobody really  thinks  on that as  they win.  who are this brothers 


bobbyjobling

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Posts: 217
 #56 
So to recap:
During transition from load to a reduce or no load period respiration limitation ;

1)will increase THb due to CO2 vasodilation effect(THB +ve Rate Of Change(ROC))
2)SmO2 will stay the same or slight increase( smo2 no ROC or slight +ve ROC)
2)HHB will go up and will never go down (HHB +ve ROC never -ve ROC)
3)HbO2 will go up and will never go down (HbO2 +ve ROC never -ve ROC)

Is the above points for respiratory limitation true until when the level of SmO2 increase will start to make HHB level reduce (HHB -ve ROC)?

juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #57 
So to recap: 
During transition from load to a reduce or no load period respiration limitation ; 

You see the  reaction much better  when   doing a  complete  muscle contraction stop  as  an ongoing activity  can mess up  some reactions so  they are much less clear.
1)will increase THb due to CO2 vasodilation effect(THB +ve Rate Of Change(ROC)) 
In a  complete  stop  you get  rid of a lot   of muscle  contraction (  again some exception ) so  the CO2   which is  still high ( Lag time of respiration )  will  create a vasodilatation. This is paired with a  still high CO which now has no  competition or much less resistance  from muscle contraction, so   the  2  CO2  and  CO  will  accumulate  their effect  and that is  why tHb  is going up  easy and fast  and often overshoots. Than  you see a  drop in tHb  mainly  due to a  drop in HR  as well  the balance  out  of CO2    to normocapnia.

2)SmO2 will stay the same or slight increase( smo2 no ROC or slight +ve ROC) 
SmO2  will drop  at the moment  the tHB  goes up. Reason  high CO2   so  vasodilatation, but  high CO2  is  right shift  of O2 disscurve  so  easy  to take  O2  off  but hard  to load. So here  you may see as well a lower SpO2
The  rest      forget  to keep it easier .
The above  explained reactions are  super easy to see live  as you do the specif  workouts. I use  a  very short  roll over  screen  for this  like a  3 min  for example.
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