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awatson

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 #16 
Once again thanks for the comments, my brain hasn't worked this hard in a while. 

Here is a full complete 5-1-5. Moxy on right VL, honestly I don't know where the "RF" muscle is. But willing to give that a try. 

Used the Moxy 5-1-5 app to guide the effort, and an uncalibrated computrainer in erg mode. So once set a very steady load. 

My newbie look at the data, AR zone is pretty clearly seen in the first complete step as SmO2 is climbing.
A structural endurance zone in the second complete step SmO2 is in a nice plateau. 
After that each step is at a high intensity zone as SmO2 gradually decreases during each 5 min load.

tHb trends, so If I understand this correctly the rise in tHb during the latter loads could be caused by that PH shift or increase in co2? At rest the spike in tHb could be due to increased blood flow and/or bloodpressure? 






 
Attached Files
csv AWrampdec15.csv (81.87 KB, 10 views)

sebo2000

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 #17 

 I’m only going to comment on first 3 circles.

 

Did he desaturate far? (If Moxy was on the VL, it doesn’t feel low but)

Extremely interesting question. I think it all depends…. if you compare desaturation of his VL and my VL, not far desaturation at all (and I’m not that good),

I can desaturate my VL to 20% easily. There is one caveat: I know I have VL imbalance (I found out yesterday in really bad way how it was caused….Juerg Moxy is better than I thought), while I’m desaturating my VL to 20% my other muscles are really not used that much, if his muscles are balanced closer and they all desaturate equally from 80% to 40% during the same effort, I say we have decent desaturation, still room for improvement, but we have to start somewhere…That would also mean this could be super strong athlete with some work to do.

I guess I didn’t see enough data from world class athletes and how balanced their leg muscles are, so I'm unsure here.

Without sample data from other parts of the leg it is really hard to draw meaningful conclusion.

Did he  reached  the desaturation  all three times  with the same physiological stimulation ?

 Not at all...

 Could he use  the power as a guide  in this cases.

 

I will say yes, looking at power could help in this case, first example was steady ramp from 240W to 400W

Second example started to hard at 340W which is 100W higher created instant muscle compression, then he released power thinking “wow it is bit too hard” but that short power release didn’t really eliminate muscle compression, it takes longer for muscle compression to let blood in, so we see instant desaturation that stays for duration of the interval, there is slight SmO2 bump after power release but it seems insignificant.

Third interval was also way too hard and had to be abandoned.

 Having said that, I think for 2nd interval to have similar SmO2 profile he would need to ramp it from about 220-380W power would have to be slightly less, so knowing that, he could use power, but if he would be to repeat the same power interval, no it would probably not work.



juergfeldmann

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 #18 
haha  great 
 Once again thanks for the comments, my brain hasn't worked this hard in a while. 

Here we go  there are different options  for your brain   to give more  O2   or at lats more blood.
 a) in standing you can do a specific  manipulation and the  blood flow in the brain will increase  and most likely he O  situation. Now interesting  will be  that  the  blood flow  will go up  but you may see a  drop in SmO2
b) you as well can do it different  and you will have an increase in blood flow again   and  you will have  for sure more  O2  but again it may be, that SmO2  drops  again.  

The RF  is much more  informative  than  the VL. Unfortunate  the  science community believes in VL  for biking, but reality is  the RF is much more involved  for  actual   help in  finding what we look  for.   The rectus  femoris is easy to find  in  most   skinny  cyclist . If  you contract  your  quadriceps  the RF is one of  the 4  quadriceps  head  and the only head   who goes over the hip  so he makes  hip  flexion  and  knee extension. So   flex  your  thigh muscle and you will see  three   clear muscle bellies  , one  close  to your knee  cap on the  more inside of  the  knee cap ( medial )  this is  your vastus  medialis .

(  VL   moxy placement sometimes  creates  a risk  to be too much lateral ( outside ) and than you have   possibly   some of  the light sources on the ITB ( iliotibila band )  and not optimal  feedback )
 Than one on the outside ,  VL  and the  one belly in the middle is  your Rectus  femoris. The  4  th one  forget  as it is  not  available  with a NIRS  depth or  even with a  SEMG  . 


Next  up  Sorry
 The  " zoning   ARI  STEI  FEI  and HII is a  fun zoning as a  " cheap " compromise  to bridge  the  zoning  from classical  to  physiological  ideas.
  I  think now after all  it was a  mistake to get that out. ( stupid  cook book )
 Why. 
 Physiological  training has  really  three  intensities and  it depends on what  you like to achieve    and depends on that goal  you  choose an intensity.

You know the  famous  " garbage"    zone in classical ideas.
 There is no such thing like  a " garbage  zone " there is  only a garbage  understanding  on what happens  in  he   different intensities. 
. Or in other word  wattage or performance you push will not really decide,  what you will stimulate,  it will force  your body  to react in what you try to push in wattage  and how to survive  this effort.
 the HITT  example.
What was the plan to be stimulated.  Yes  we see a desaturation, not  a great one,  but there is one. But how  did we achieved  this  by really stimulating the desaturation ability or by simply overloading for example the cardiac  system  as one of the delivery system. And to  try to survive  you had  to try to  get O2  from somewhere,  as   it was not delivered  anymore. So  did  you really stressed desaturation? Perhaps  ! but you  for sure may have  overload  the delivery system.
What was  the goal ?.
You have  minimal control  on what you like to achieve,you simply  often  throw  everybody into the  fight  and hope to survive  somehow
So in a physiological guided   intensity  you  decide  whether you like to stress desaturation alone , or  you  like to add another  system  in it  for an overload  like  respiration for example or  coordination and so on.This has  to be in an intensity,  where non of the systems is pushed  to  the limit  naturally, as  you  as a coach like to push the system in and over its limit  based on you goal.
It is really  your  philological goal, that will decide  what  intensity  you can  produce.

Example. . In heat  HR  will create  the famous  HR  drift  ( not just heat )when you  stick  with a  fixed wattage.
 Now  that means  the drift  changes  the physiological stimulation, as   you may have to increase CO  to  maintain  body temperature,  so you shift blood  to the  surface  due to the  protection  of core temperature.
 This  blood shift reduces  the available blood and with it the   O2  supply  to the  working muscles,  but as   core temperature  is more important than performance,  you simply  will lose performance  for survival reasons and HR goes up  due to  either increase  in CO  needs or  due to a  drop in SV

 So physiological  training in this case would mean give up  the fixed  wattage  and maintain  the core temperature.  So  same HR  will create a wattage drift .
 This means in a physiological  training  you do not have a HR  drift or  any drift of a physiological parameter , but always a  performance drift.  !!!!!!!

So really  will look at your  5/1/5  but use the "physiological intensity idea  we will see in upcoming software in Europe.  

OXY  Intensity  ( red zoning color)  easy to understand . SmO2  normally will increase  and tHb  will increase  or   be flat or  drop as O2Hb really increases and that is red  meaning you delivery  more O2  than needed.  

Balanced  Intensity    is the intensity  where the O2  delivery and O2  utilization is balanced. meaning  that one system  will have  reached  its limitation and  the   chance is high , that you see an other system  start to compensate.  The theoretical  optimal balanced  intensity is , where O2Hb  and HHb  are parallel in a biased graph and tHb is  flat as well. so SmO2  is  flat  as well.

DeOXY Intensity  where we have a higher utilization   so blue (HHb) goes  up  and red ( O2Hb )  down  due to  a  higher   O2  demand and  but  an inability to   deliver    the O2. This  can  be , but not  has  to be in HIIT  versions. In HIIT it  will always happen as mentioned, but  including an overload of limiter  and compensators  so  complete   loss of control  just   real   survival   idea. 

so If I understand this correctly the rise in tHb during the latter loads could be caused by that PH shift or increase in co2? 


hmm not  complete  that  straigh forward. Yes  an increase in CO2   can create vasodilatation  and it may happen   if  the CO  can  support the  BP.  pH  shift  will  in some cases be  together  with  CO2 increase tHb in cae of  increase in H +  so yes could  help  for an increase in tHb. better seen in the rest period, than under load,as we get rid  of  muscle compression influence.

juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #19 
Seboo   yes  another great dinner  served  by  Chef seboo . great   observation    an yes great  conclusions.   Yes  you like to see a  very low  SmO  in  all major   movement contributor  in   certain sports,   but  all have to be involved. In seboos  case great  effort  of VL   minimal    help  by RF  and  RF must like it  to get a  free ride thanks to a  super great VL.
 Easy  exam I show  to my  grad  0 - 12 students is a  simple  biceps   curl  , where we  have   the biceps  and 2 heads  and how I  can  increase  performance  by simply add  to the  short head the long head as well. Than you add  brachioradialis  and brachialis  and so on  and you lift more  weight because  you  have a better team .
 The most common reason  for muscle dysbalance  and muscle dysharmonie  is performance driven  workouts . If  the goal is to reach  15  reps  with a certain  weight you learn to reach  15  resp  with a  certain weight   no matter  how you achieve this  goal  and you may  competently  miss the optimal ability to lift  the weight and reach the 15  reps  down the road. You my be better on lifting    8 reps  and a  smaller weight as  long you know  how  to load  the proper groups  you need for a perfect   future lift. 
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
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Posts: 1,501
 #20 
Andrew  look in   schiltz   section  your  possible limiter 
 Here the overview 
watson  and his  2.jpg 


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