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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
I go another very nice  email  and with permission of the  person ( Thanks so much )   I will try to  give some answers or  at least thoughts to a part in the discussion we use   with MOXY assessments .
Here a  small section of a great mail .

 

As such your answer makes a lot of sense but I cannot follow all the terminology.

I don't yet know what the terms, compensator, limiter, ... mean.


Compensator  and LIMITER  are  two interesting ideas we  run in our assessment.
 So I like to  try here to give you some ideas  on what we mean with this  and MOXY usage.

 First I like to give you some random example how  the  body  work in many cases  with this  idea of  Limiter and compensator. I like to strat first with some sport examples  and than add  randomly some  more medical or physiological examples. I am sure  after this  many can see the ideas  or thoughts behind the   limiter and compensator  but than I  will end the   ideas  with  a specific example on MOXY use.

Sport example.
You have 2 people.
 A is a  very  good cyclist and in top cycling shape.
 B his friend is not  into  to much performance sport but is cross-country skiing very regular since  many years  and was once  very good in this ( technically  and  physiologically. Now  he lost his  physiological advances  but still is  very smooth on his skis.
 So one day they go skiing together.
 A is very surprised  how hard  he has to go and  how  fatigued  he  was , when B was steady talking  from the front  and  enjoyed a good but relaxed  day on the cross country  skis.
 They skied together  but with very different limiters  and compensators.
 A  had  technique  as his limiter , but was able to compensate  with a very good fitness level.
 B  had fitness as  his limiter  but  had a great  technique  as his compensator.

 Now  what would be the best   situation to have the best  athlete here ???  So  where would you focus on the training idea in A  or in B.
 Assuming they may have done a race  and  both would have arrived  together  and we have the race time 34 min.
 What  would we know   after the 34 min  on what to do with this A  and B  client  when we only look at the time ???

 So you have 2  athletes  same VO2  max ???? 
You have two athletes  same LT  performance ????
You have two cyclist  with the same FTP 20 ????
 You have one athlete  with 5  times the same 350 watt load over a 1 min interval ????  You see where I go with this ???? 

Okay  I planned to give some other  examples  short.   You have knee pain on your right leg  and you keep cycling.  FTP 250 .with 2 good legs.
 Now  what is the limiter  and what  may be able to compensate ?

You have a  chronic  lung problem  and your  right   section of the heart has to push  more and more  into the lungs  circulation. Limiter lungs , compensator  right ventricle . This is okay  for a while but sooner than later your  limiter  creates an overload on the compensator and the right ventricle  will be soon a  new limiter.
  Now  to the physiological assessments  and or tests.
 Remember  A  and B  and the race.
 No idea  what to do , when you see the race result. Any thing you can do is take the time , a calculator  and make a %  zoning out of this race time ???
 I that smart ???.
 So any VO2  max  test is not far  from this idea it just looks more sophisticated  and  it costs somewhat  more. You get a VO2  max  number a VO2 max  performance  and than you go to the calculator . That's it.
 At least you have  somewhat an individual  max tested level.
 Now you go  and make a lactate test. What you get5 here is a  series  of points  and 25  options  to  fit into your ideas  on where you may find a LT  . Than you  not even use the values really but  find a performance or HR  number  at the speculated  LT which as you can see  can have  25  different results and even if you use  one idea only  you will have  many different results depending on your  step length, food  / nutritional situation and so on.
Now  as a cellist you may take FTP  60 or  20   and again you have a  " race result"  and you hope that this  objective performance number  form today will carry on  for many days  if not even weeks to come.
 You actually have to hope  that you do not make progress  as otherwise  you will push too low elvels  to  create  more progress.

 Now in any of this cases, no matter whether we  believe they work  we miss  a physiological relevant information. Meaning we do no  know  what may have cause this  performance today as we do not know  what may be today limiter  or compensator.  Another example.
 You go to altitude  and your  FTP  power may be  lower.
 Why.
 True  it could be the respiration as this may be you  limiter already  on sea level. so the  ability to get rid  of CO2  will change the way you will use O2.

 BUT perhaps you have  delivery limitation  as you may have not  enough transportation capacity like red blood cells. This may be perhaps the reason  to go to altitude.
 Nevertheless  you  now create again more H +  than on sea level  and you  can try to  compensate  the get rid of  CO2  over a  really good trained respiratory system , which now is the compensator . Now many more options. But you can see , that in some cases  altitude stimulation will improver your sea level limiter like for example  O2  transportation. He will benefit  nicely.
 On the other side  a guy who has a  delivery limitation respectively a  respiratory limitation  may  have a negative impact  from altitude  as he now  can move more O2    but if he  does not  has the mitochondria density   he will now  push  with much more O2  in nIRS  will still produce  a lot  of CO2  and  his limiter which was overloaded in the first part in the 3 weeks altitude is  still  a limiter  and performance will be  not  great. That is  why we  have  responders  and no responders in any training idea. As long we do NOT know limiter and compensator  we  just say  you are a non responder  and  he is a responder.
 Sorry   that is it. In fact we may have a coaching team which is a nonresponsive  coaching team as they where  not able  with their test idea  to   find limiter and compensator and based on this info  would have adjusted the program  accordingly instead  having one menu  to eat for all.

 Now the last section as  an explanation first a picture  following with some wording but try to give your own words to the picture

rower day 1.jpg 



Classical assessments  will be represented on the left side  with Black rowers. A VO2  max test a FTP test a LT test a max HR test  all are  black rowers. They all keep us in the dark as we  simply end up with an end result   and have no feedback on how the team  which is in us actually  created this end result. Who had  to compensate  for  what limitation  and so on.
 So  we  know that we have different  players in a team  and to have the best result  we need a very balanced  team. If  we have one weak player than the team  has an overall performance limitation as  the  good player  needs energy to compensate  for the weakest  link or player.
 So  with NIRS we  can   get very close to  finding the limiter  and the compensator.
 Example..
 Your respiration is a limiter.
 So in a MOXY assessment you will see that  you  start to deoxygenate  more than before  and you may as well see that tHb overreacts  in the one minute break where as  SmO2  will increase in a delayed  fashion.
 The  respiratory limitation created a situation, where to stay  in a balanced situation with CO2  you should be able to breath 190 l/ VE but you can only breath 145 L /VE so you start to accumulate CO2 in the body. You may try to compensate with the limiter  r( respiration ) by breathing much faster, but as it is a limitation you may breath shallower  so it does not work you only shift the  way  you try to breathe but still only 145 L. The CO2 increase will shift the O2  disscurve to the right. Great as you now  can get easier O2  ( SMO2  drops ), but you have more problem to load O2  from the lungs to the Blood
 So great  compensation on one side  but a  time bomb on the other side.
So the high CO2  allows  a  nice  drop in SmO2.
 but a systemic  delay in reloading O2   as long as  we are CO2  wise out of balance.
 The high CO2  will as well create a  vasodilatation so we see this on the tHb trend.
 BUT we only see that when we get rid  of the  main O2  user , that working muscle. So that's  why we have 5/1/6  idea  or we stop once in a  while during a workout to get a feedback  how is  now limiter and who  may try to compensate.

 Will follow  up  with more  directions but first  try to digest these individual menus  and please  come back where ever you see  some questions in this  ideas.


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
There is a real in English great summary  about  what we  look as information on Limiter  by Roger under http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/bid/363214/Thoughts-on-Finding-the-Limiter
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
So when we look at the idea  of Limiter  and compensator  or     on the idea, why it  could make sense  to search for the limiter rather than for the overall performance. Or  at least look why the overall performance is  where it is    and why, than you can see  why a  physiological concept  would make sense  to try to trace  physiological changes during an assessment.
 To do this   we need more time    compared to a 3 min step test  or   a  wingate test. ( exception like in a wingate, where I like to limit the delivery    and   therefor see much better the  utilization ability.
 That's  why in a  Wingate  test  the majority of   people will deoxygenate  (  dropping  O2  )  much further than in a  VO2  max  test.

deoxy N.jpg

So here my  picture  of a  classical  performance test versus a  physiological assessment  to find   information's  where and how to design an  individual training program.


rower race day 2.jpg

Small correction as this is a very old  slide  so the idea is not new  at all . This is a slide  from some bike training camps I did  many moons  back in Spain ( Girona ) , where we  tested   every year  1 - 2000 athletes  over  span of  15  plus years.
 What do I try to tell.
. A race is an end result  with little information of  the teams  strength and weaknesses it is just an  end result.
 An assessment is a specific   view of  each of the team members to see when they start  to   limit the performance as they are  the weak link.
 Simple example.  Stroke  rate is 40  and the team is going great . Member 2   is  at his limitation  so  a stroke rate 43  is not a great idea  as he will start to interfere  with the   rest of the crew. So  what is the training goal ?
 So   your respiration is the limitation your    FTP VE is 145 l/Min. This is how much  O2  and how much CO2  %  you can move.
 By pushing harder  you need to get rid  of  a higher %  of CO2 but you can only ventilate 145 L  . To stay balanced  with H +   or  in other words to get rid  of CO2  to stay in balance  you need to  move 170 L/ min.  So  what is your next training goal. ?

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