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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
Remember the picture   from the USA   track cyclist  with a specific  question?
 here some more interesting feedback's

USA Cycling announced the women's team pursuit roster in March. The the team representing the US in Rio includes Kelley Catlin (NorthStar Development,) Chloe Dygert (Twenty16-Ridebiker,) Sarah Hammer, Jennifer Valente (Twenty16-Ridebiker,) and Ruth Winder (UnitedHealthCare.)

The major innovations include an asymmetrical frame design and a left-side drive train aimed at improving aerodynamics and combating the slight yaw found at indoor velodromes. The left side drive train is a custom design by Vision based on its Metron TT crankset. It sports an aerodynamic chain ring cap and a Stages power meter with dual sensors.

In addition to the unusual frame, the women will use Hed wheels, specially designed to fit the narrower aerodynamic fork and rear stays. The wheels will be fitted with Vittoria tyres for their low rolling resistance.

IBM has provided space-age technology to show power, lap times, muscle oxygenation and "match burned" in real time - with a heads-up display in the Solos smart eyewear.

USA Cycing's newest partner, ASSOS of Switzerland, is also developing a proprietary speed suit for the team to go with their Giro helmets.

2. The  MOXY  tutorial   webinar now is accepted by cycling USA  as a credit account  for  cycling  coaches. Check it out on their website  for  credentials.
Ruud_G

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 #2 
I wonder how they apply it. Do they apply it live and how. Or just look and analyse afterwards. Where do they place it and what do they look for. Or is it experimenting for them.
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Both , live  and after. Live they use a wasp  see picture :


 They use it on the  right VL

1.jpg 
Than  they push the button to start  live and memory   options


3.jpg



The long  range option  is over a  Wasp system

5.jpg 


See wasp  right hand  MOXY left hand and than there are different options  for live feedback. We often sue a big screen  with a live feedback where we  just have a 3 min roll over  so tHb and SmO2  are really big and you can see immediately  what the tHb reaction  may show you.

Neal Henderson  who was doing some blood testing as well was one of our  first  cycling coaches in a  MOXY  seminar we had a  few years back in Boulder Colorado  , where Frank Bour  and Physio flow  where  introduced  as well.



Ruud_G

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 #4 
Maybe Neal can share a bit on what he is actually looking for when applying the Moxy (on one muscle?). That would be nice. My experience is really that placing the Moxy at the same muscle but a little more left or right etc. can give very different results which cannot be explained by only daily variations and as such makes even basing or adjusting training on it on "shaky grounds". Any interpretation for a different result can be discussed and we wont know what is the right interpretation since we never measure everything.
The high variability and all the things we don't know (measure) makes NIRS in general still a very volatile technique without actually being able to make a hard conclusion of what is really happening. And yes this also (strongly) has to do with the fact that our systems are not tweaked the same everyday. But since we don't measure anything daily we don't know. It is the placement (just a few mm left or right) which causes the different local trend, is it the respiratory system which causes the slightly different trend of drops in SmO2 under equal loads (ceteris paribus), is the the.... and so on. In that way we are looking at a moving target and on average maybe actually doing the same thing as not looking at that info. Or (maybe worse) we think that we are looking at something and interpreting it which may not be the explanation on why we see the things we see.
The question (for me) remains whether a local measurement (which tends to differ due to many different factors of which most are not measured) is representative or (better said) interpretable for a better training. A training in which I have actually done somehing different stimulation in the bike and which would have been the same and would not give headaches afterwards in trends or values which are very difficult (or worse) not even explainable given all factors which could be controlled were controlled.
In that sense I understand that a lot of Moxy centers are very reluctant to give an insight on their interpretation of the data. Because as a critical reader you can ask questions to the conclusions given. And than sometimes it seems conclusions given are most probably the ones customers had to see (altough there are many many not so very well informed of course). Questions which are often posed at lactate and vo2max but can actually also be turned towards NIRS. I see I have drifted a bit of topic I see. Sorry for that [wink]
Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of results which seem in line with what I would expect. But same amount of results which -with best intention of the world- make no sense or are of very little value in interpreting training afterwards.
juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Ruud great feedback  and lot's of great points  and  yes this is the start to understand  physiological  designed training programs.
The  whole idea is  exactly as Ruud points out  looking at daily  reaction and understand what they mean.
 The  biggest  problem  I see in hundreds  of discussions  and emails over the last few month is  the  problem that we still are  stuck  on numbers  and  ideas of LT  and  Max values.
 I may talk with some of the  email origin  whether I  can show  some  training  results   we achieved  over  the last few years  with athletes  and how we  traced the changes  down.
It  all starts with the  part we   try to get feed backs  and perhaps  Ruud can help.
 What is  actually anaerobic training in cycling  and  where and how do we  find papers proofing that is t was anaerobic.
  What is an O2 deficit  and why   do some changed  the  idea  to EPOC.
 How much  is the  time  lag   from direct feedback  we  have  from NIRS  to  the VO2  results.
 How much is the time lag  and  the reaction we see in lactate  to the NIRS feedback.
 How  do we  define VO2 max  workouts  based on  wattage or  what . How  do we know  that the  wattage you push is really above VO2  max.
 And much more.
 Many  critical questions we  asked  our self over the last 25 years  or  from thee moment Brooks  showed  the  big lactate question   ugly or  very  helpful.
. The   first  original goal in  any endurance sport was and still is  the intensity , where we have a balance  of O2  supply  and demand on the highest intensity possible . Best  shown in classical ideas with the  MAX lass.
 Now   with NIRS  we can  actually find this  any time we like to find it  for a daily proper  intensity control.
 Based on this  in combination  with HR   which most have  and RF    we than have the  bio feedback which  can guide us  nicely over   daily adjustments.

 The intense  discussion and the many places  where NIRS  now is used  is a testament on the  possibilities  we have  and  in short or long we will see more and more  using  this  combination. As mentioned very early on this forum  we will need some  +-5  years still till we have a  great discussion going as most  coaches including Neal will  keep cooking in their own kitchen  and  including us , we  do the same as there is  just a  Olympic  game around the corner  and no way  we will have  any open discussion  for the moment. It took us  25 + years  to be where we are  and I am sure   the many smart people out there can reduce this   to 5  and less years  as the seeds  are  out  there and the   brains are working.

to avoid being just a talk here an example  from last weekend.

Below is an assessment from a  south African medical  doctor  who is a ultra distance runner  we now   work  since over 2 years. Here is the lates assessment to  designe some new physiological stimulations.
 So  first we did  the  nearly daily  "  calibration" of  3 double steps. so the first  two loads  same   intensity  than the next  2  and the last  2
 You can see it was 4/1/4
The idea was  to find the homeostatic  limitation and than despite the same load  we tried  to see,
whether we can reverse it.
  
smo2  thb  test only.jpg 

You can see in the last double load  after a drop in SmO2    and a  still slightly increase in tHb  the goal was  to see, whether we  can increase tHb  and reduce the need  for  O2 by the same load. This was the  target  set  about 3  + month back  and in this assessment we reached  it the first time. below the answer  what happened
smo2 hr  tets only plus  circles.jpg 
red is  as usual on here HR

we than  added  just after the  calibration 9 assessment intervals  with different  physiological stimulation targets.
 below the 9 loads and identical loads  for all 9

thb smo2  resp  3  sets.jpg 
and below  the  SmO2  and HR


hr  smo2  resp  sets.jpg

Yes we id  as well blood values  and  CO2 values  RF  and cardiac feedback  to  just confirm  for us  that what we see with NIRS only  can be backed up for us  with better  additional equipment so we  are  confident that in this case we  can sue  NIRS  for  many  regular workouts  to be guided over   bio feedbacks. So in +-  a few weeks  we wil reassess and than see what has changed  again and what is the new limitation we have to target  for further personal improvements.
 The  goal on this  forum is  to show interpretation options and combination of NIRS   feedbacks. and  for   interested people I think  Fortiori  has now a Tutorial  to start out  with  with  information and self  testing of the ideas and   knowledge  readers may have gained or not yet  and it  for sure will change  as  so often and improve.

 There are  now different national teams  and organisations from different countries   ready to integrate  NIRS into their daily use  and  assessment tools   so time is fun  and will be super interesting to see  the  next  steps. In a veyr short time  you may be surprised  how   as well in  cycling the bio assessment will change as there are  prototype  of tools out we just had the pleasure  to test 1 week ago  which   most likely will change the  way we assess and  train  even more. Some  cyclists  may have seen it on the road already this  spring during a Mallorca  cycling camp.  Stay  tuned  as  time is moving on.
 Team sports  may be in for a treat  in a  very short time  for the upcoming  summer training programs  in ice hockey. so stay tuned  for this  as well.
  Important stay  critical  as Ruud is doing but as well   use the same critical ideas and questions to what we  do now  or  what  we did  in the past

Last  question.
 If  LT2  is MAX lass  so  above LT  2   lactate will accumulate  and below LT  2  or max lass lactate production is  lower  than  lactate utilization. what does that mean ?


juergfeldmann

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 #6 
not an overwhelming respond but two emails.
Key words. Stroke volume and key direction HR x SV = CO
Look at the trend in tHb and than HR and Smo2 . try to explain to yourself what this means ?
Ruud_G

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 #7 
Thanks for sharing Juerg. By staying critical my question would be: how "steady" are the results and conclusions taken from this daily assessment. There is quite some heterogeneity within and between muscle groups and as such a trend for a certain stimulation will give trend x for muscle x and trend y with muscle y. For 99.9% of athletes If you only have daily HR or -if you're lucky a mechanic work intensity- you'll end up with different conclusions on what might or what might not happen. As said this can differ even when placing the device just a few inches to he left or to the right.
For team sports there are quite some options nowadays to grasp intensity or to monitor individual training load and make adjustments based on that. I have seen some very good examples for that in the Aspire academy lessons.
I agree there is experimentation going on and no one wants to share. But I often see a lot of marketing going around which cannot be backed up. And I am very curious whether the new tutorial is going to solve and give answers to the questions a lot of people still have: how to apply it on training, how valid is is, how stable are these results, does it actually give a valid base to use in training and if yes under which circumstances / for what type of training, and how much does it actually matter. A good example is a warmup. If I do a warmup just by feel or by placing a device on one place of my whole body : will that give me a better warmup, will the placement give me answers to validate that this is a better warmup (for my whole body), i.e. does it represent a whole body picture? And what it the additional value of knowing a tHb trend / SmO2 trend in one muscle? OK, if you have two, two muscles. I can say same for HR and same for a power perspective no problem. But we must not place to much emphasis or value on one small piece of giant puzzle to paint the complete picture.
Believe me. I am also testing (still a lot) but results can go quite off. And with that datastream even more compared to "normal daily human variation" it doesn't make it any easier [wink]
juergfeldmann

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 #8 
Ruud as usual good points  and  well  shown.
 
The tutorial  will Not  give you any feedback on how to train as this is not the idea of the  tutorial;  it will help to understand  how to make the interpretation based on  trends  and not  absolute values.
. You  can place  4  and we do it with  8 MOXY's  on specific muscles  and  if you understand the  muscle dynamic and  spiral  motions  you will have the same trend in  them with very different  values.
.
 I  absolutely agree  with you  that  it is  very  complex  and that's  why there is not a  cook book, but   on the other side we  can use it  with  average people   from the road  with easy information.
 I just work  with a person with a leaking heart valve (  erotic  valve  due to  bi versus tricupital ( genetic  variation )  and we  can easy  show , when we have a to high blood pressure  due to load  and when the valve is leaking by just using MOXY. We  as well will do some reassessment  after his replacement  when all is stable  to show  the  difference  and  the tHb  reaction will be the guide.
 We had this  many years back the first time  with a  top  cyclist, where  we  " diagnosed " the  leaking valve  and they after the fact  checked  and  confirmed  it.

 The  key again is  to  see the  time lags  of the different physiological reactions.
 I  can show  with the permission in the next few weeks a  2 year as mentioned program,  where we moved  the limiters  and it is  easy to see, what was limiting performance  and than  we  focused on just that  area.
.
 I  just  will have this afternoon a  patient  after a  stent operation, where we  4 month ago refused  to do a program  before we   had  an angiogram. Finally they did  one  and the result was a  stent    operation.
 The initial assessment showed a clear cardiac limitation  and now we have a muscular limitation and the person is back in preparing for a  fall marathon.

 So  yes  often it needs luck as well  and sometimes  a little bit of  closer  understanding.

 I like your critical  look very much and I think in cycling it is  far to early  for NIRS uses  as there is too much  confusing on performance physical versus physiological , instead of a  combination.
 I tried  in many emails to talk people in to show on here  W ' bal reaction combined  with SmO2  and tHb as a base line discussion.
  ????
 What  surprises me in cycling is , that we  run towards calculated  prediction versus  live physiological feedback.
 As mentioned a  future  lab will be   NIRS  plus VO2 combination for as little as a  decent power  meter in price  and it will change  the  way we look at  training live to the next higher level.

 I like  this  great critic  as it is  we exactly what we all need  but in all levels. How asking the same question  to the established  believe  of a  LT2  existence.
 I still wait  for  the  answers.
  LT2  or  Max lass, what is happening with the lactate trend or  dynamic  if  I load  just below  LT 2 or  Max lass  and what happens  if I just load  above  Max lass or  LT 2 ?  What about  taking lactate   on different locations  with the  different time lags.
 One  we have  some answers on there  Max lass LT 2 reaction in lactate  than it is much easier to see,  what the advantage  or the progress but as well the limitation  of NIRS in cycling is  compared to the classical ideas.

 It  will  get easier  as we  move  along  and as  soon we have more people  ready to share more   ??? Smile  it will come  and the main limitation is  EGO  and   business concerns. We  are all just humans
juergfeldmann

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 #9 
Just  forgot. The reaction  we have in our  example is  seen    as well in not priority  muscles. so no  real problem  where  and how you place the MOXY. The question again is , what  do you look when using NIRS.
 performance feedback or  physiological reactions.
 Physiological reactions tend  to be  minimal   depended  on  placing as long they are on a main involved muscle  for certain feedback's. If they are  systemic limitations than  it nearly does not matter  with as  usual some  exceptions like blood flow  problem due to   "unnatural "  problems.  So the  question  is :

 What  do you expect  from a NIRS feedback  and  why would you look for that  ideas?
 Warm up , what   do you like to see and  why. What  explains  whether the warm up  was " successful"
Ruud_G

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 #10 
Hi Juerg. In a few weeks I will post some workouts with W'bal trends, SmO2, tHb and load. Cheers.
Wrt a warmup. There are some posts in the "archives" which relate to an increasing SmO2 trend and tHb trend as to define a good warmup. I will show some results placing it on two different muscles (left rectus femoris and right rectus femoris) same workout, but different reactions in warmup
juergfeldmann

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 #11 
That  will be so great. Now I have a very different  take  as so often on what warm up means  so NIRS is a very small if any part of a  " good " warm up  and I  often not place NIRS on a  main  involved muscle but on muscles  with limited  priorities  for  a particular  sport.
 Why  woudl I  do that.
 What  has  to " warm up "   in an  athlete  anyway.
 How  warm are we before the warm up and why do we often start to sweat    when we warm  up. What is the reason  for sweating ? What  in a start situation is really the biggest  initial challenge of the physiological systems.
 It si  the  delivery situation which may  depending on the sport be  already  reduced  again despite  great " warm up" look ins ports  like MTB where the top guys  are  called in first  and they stand around  for a very long time.
 Different  for the top guys in marathon and much better  for  top  guys in ITT.
Key words come in mind.
 CO2  reactions  due to respiratory lag time.
 SV  reaction due  to  cardiac lag time ?
  so how  woudl we see with NIRS  whether  we  played  with CO2  already or not  so whether we  are hypo  or hyerpcapnic   before the start depending on the sport.
 How  do we see  SV reactions in the warm up  so we  know we reached an optimal as possible  pre load of the  cardiac system.

 Small energy or metabolic  point in a  warm up , where the joint lubrication  ( synovial  liquid )  as well as the muscle pattern  muscular  coordination inter and intramuscular  are  much more important    than we often think on.
 Intra muscular coordination  can be observed  to a certain extend  with NIRS  as well as intermuscular coordination ,   so the  cook book  high tHb  and high SmO2  can be looked  upon it but  there is much more individual feedback depending whether I warm up  for a 200 m canoe  sprint liek last weekend  in Duisburg   world cup  or whether I warm up  for a tennis game  like last night  for  the Roland Garros or whether you warm up  for the   ITT on the giro. 2  days ago.
 Three different sport  three different athletes three different  observation  for a  warm  up where NIRS is a part of the feedback.  For NIRS users  who have a Portamon or  Oxymon  with T1  t2  t3  the observations are  actually much nicer due to the three penetration depth.
 We   looked at this  by using  MOXT Y  and Portamon at the same time and used  heat and ice  at the tested muscle to see how this  2 NIRS  equipment  woudl actually complement each other.  By the  way Thanks Ruud  you as so often  pushed  with your grate critical  questions some people to react with  emails.
 The main question was. What is the point  to actually have a NIRS  when we  do not know how it works ?
 Will start  for  newcomers a new threat on this to show  benefits   and  limits on this question again.

Question:
 Ruud  do you have power cranks ?
If yes  make a 4/1/4   left leg only  and one  4/1/4  right leg only  and than  4/1/4  both legs. MOXY on  RF both sides .
If no  try to  do a 4/1/4  one leg use only  and than one  other leg use only  and than you have  already some  both legs.
 If you have a lactate analyzer  take lactate in the one leg workout on the   loaded side  and on the o  unloaded side on the  toe if possible . we use bike sandals  so no problem to take blood and  if you have a  fast  lactate  analyzer 10 seconds reading time  take on on a  finger  as well. We have 1 min lead time  with lactate Pro  so we use  three analyzers at the same time.

 This is  actually fun  to  do  for people  doing BFR  workouts.
Ruud_G

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 #12 
No powercranks.
juergfeldmann

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 #13 
no problem just less easy to  have a great picture  so  simply use one leg only  and  move the otehr out and away  from the free flying pedal.
juergfeldmann

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 #14 
no problem just less easy to  have a great picture  so  simply use one leg only  and  move the otehr out and away  from the free flying pedal.
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