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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #16 
Daniele,
 Thanks  for the great  feedback.

1. One small critic here. Sometimes when explaining a particular SmO2/tHB behavior I see the option of possible lower wattage/higher wattage etc.

Great point  and  absolutely right  taking the wattage  would eliminate this  2  options, as we  have a feedback.
 Now in  most cases  where we use  MOXY we do not have  performance or  we  are not even interested in performance as we simply plan a physiological reaction / stimulation.
 So we have this 2  or even more options  available and the  part of  reading MOXY    can be  to see this options  and than  try to   combine additional feed backs , perhaps assume   what performance  may have done or not.
 This was the task  for our   grade 10 - 12  students. Using  physiological feed backs  to  try  to guess  what  performance may have done. It is a part of our  "logical thinking activation"  in school ,rather than education  as   the idea of   repeating what the teachers  tell. Different idea  of    learning perhaps.
 As more feedback we have  as more  answers  we  can get.
 One of the limitation is  already  with MOXY alone the  price  ( money )  so adding  additional  markers  to it is great  but  it costs  more.
 If we  like to use MOXY as a bio marker,  we may often start just with MOXY.
 The majority of  MOXY users  we  serve   have no other feedback.
 So your point is well taken  and   is  a great  point  when looking just  at cycling  workouts ( like the one we discussed )
 So  I  love to just look at tHb  and SmO2  only, but  here the  wattage and HR  information from our case study  for  additional feed backs like Daniele  suggested.

 
 Here the  Pic  from the  case  first  Wattage  and HR  than again the  tHb  and SmO2

RW HR watt.jpg 

and  again the tHb  and SmO2  same  case
full discussion idea  with three sections.jpg



2. You have indicated a possible respiration limitation which causes an increase of CO2 in the body.
How can you see this in the Smo2/tHB?

Yes we can see that on SmO2  and tHb  and that's  why I like  so much the data  Jiri  and Martin collect  as  every time we see the combination of tHb  and SmO2  we see, how they interact  and  after a while you do not  need   anymore the mask and VO2  for many cases.
. There are  2  respiratory limitation  and tHb and SmO2  react  differently.
 a)  actual metaboreflex  ( A  Dempsey  et all ).
 This means  than the  muscular systems " steels " O2   from the  vital system  and in this case  from the respiratory system.
 So the  CGM  or the metaboreflex will suggest a  protection of the more important  vital respiratory muscles rather than allowing " steeling " O 2 in the loco motor  muscles.
 The reaction is a vasoconstriction of the blood vessels
 Here a  small pic  from a   reflex  for  respiratory and cardiac  limitation .
ecgm pic.jpg 



How  would  the respiratory metaboreflex  show  up in a  MOXY/NIRS  situation of data collection ?

b )  actual respiratory muscle weakness or limitation.
 This is , where  the muscle  do not steel O2  as  the delivery  is  still far better than the utilization. . So  as we  utilize a lot of O2  but still can deliver  enough   but we push harder so we   start to accumulate more and more CO2  as  a part of the buffer  helper of  H +, we start   to  move towards a  hyerpcapnic  respiration. So CO2  is  increasing  which  shifts the  O2  Diss curve to the right. ( and as Daniele  points out,  it is  additional due to  H + often ,as  well increase in temperature  and   the change in pH.

O2 DISS CURVE.jpg 

Now  what we have than is a very high CO2 level  which  will influence as  above  shown the  O2  disscurve  so SmO2 Will    show  what ???
  and tHb   with high CO2  in the circulatory system creates  what ? and therefor  will show  up as ????
 Now  to  know this reactions the best way to go is possibly  stopping suddenly as we do in a  5/1/5  so we  get rid of the muscular  O2  demand ,but we have the  systemic  reactions  of CO2 still going.
 That is one of the main reasons  ,why we  stop down to zero load in a 5/1/5 to be able to give this answers. So your task is  to answer  Daniele's  question

How can you see this in the Smo2/tHB?


3. It looks like they set the recovery to 60 seconds which is extremely challenging for a series of all out intervals and would of course creates problems.

 
Absolutely    and depending on the  goal setting we  actually have  even shorter    rest periods. In fact as this was a  test  they  took 60 seconds in this case, in other cases  they  take  90 seconds  or what ever the sport  will ask to assess  as close  as possible to    the actual demand.
. When we  do  workouts  we    have no watch  at all and  we  can look after the  workout  what the rest periods  where.
 During the all out  workout we do not  look at any other ideas than at SmO2  and  tHb  or one or the other.


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #17 
Here  some additional feedback  for Daniele's  suggestion

 On the Jiri and Martin workout, it would probably deserve a proper case study since there are also VO2 an VCO2 figures.
You have indicated a possible respiration limitation which causes an increase of CO2 in the body.
How can you see this in the Smo2/tHB?  

Below   the reaction  of  an increase in load

You can  actually easy see the loads in the  curve of the CO2 ( grey )
  Dark green is an involved muscle  and light green is a non involved  or minimal involved muscle.

Now we  would expect, that in the dark green SmO2  we    should see the   steps as well as  " normally" we  would expect ,that when going harder we  use    more  O2  and than  we may see a  rebound, as the delivery systems  may  pick up ???
 Not here  at all.
 Utilization limitation or problem??
 Now  what is super interesting  is , that  as soon this person reaches a certain CO2 level (  First in the   body  before we  see it in the VO2  mask we see a  drop in SmO2 and  when you look carefully , as  soon she  can get rid  of CO2  again  ( drop in Grey )  we still have the systemic  lag  of  deoxygenation due to shift of the O2  disscurve to the  right followed by a super  loading  which  often is caused  by a  after load    hyperventilation reaction due to the  stimulation of  the respiration form the  CO2  Now we see a  shift of  O2  disscurve to the right   and great loading after the test.

Jili CO2 Smo2.jpg 



Now look below the trends in RF   ( black ) and TV ( yellow )

You can see nice in the first  2 loads as RF  goes up TV  drops ( increase in dead space, so in the  mask  CO2  drops  as it is accumulated in the body )
 Than lats  step   or load After the load  still high RF  but not  too bad  drop  initially  of  TV  till  the    gases are more or less balanced.
Jili RF  TV.jpg 



Here some additional feedback  which may help to understand the   team work  in the respiration  situation  and why we  have   often a discrepancy on  when we see  SmO2  dropping    when comparing with CO2  and O2  in a VO2  mas test. ( Lag time between  what  happened in the lungs   till it hits  the sensor  at the mask and what  happens in the  muscle as it is going on. Similar like  with  lactate values.  So below  just  for  the  reaosn of   having a complet  feedback  without  any comment.

CO2 levels duirng holding breath.jpg 


GAS EMOVAL RATE IN RESPIRATION.jpg 

gas exchnage.jpg 

zone of perfusion.jpg 

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