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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
Here a fun case study we did to compare the oxygenation, respiratory  cardiac hemodynamic  and metabolic reaction between walking and jogging but using the same speed.
 There where 2 reasons.
 1. To see actual difference between this two activity .
 2. To show that this are really 2 different " sports" and as such , when doing a VO2 test or any test we  have to either  run or walk but can't mix it during a test. Many centers do that and in many cases the result will  be very different if you would just walk or just run.
 Here  peak into this questions.

Marcel

Development Team Member
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Posts: 54
 #2 
Juerg, I have a question on heart rate drift in heat and if we would see a similar reaction if at all in SmO2. So lets say in summer I want to repeat a session that I did in winter or mild temperatures. First of all with the higher heat if I stick to a certain workload I am going to get a heart rate drift if I stick to a certain heart rate Im going to get a performance drift.  Does the SmO2 feedback show any major 'drift'. If not and the levels are the similar then I can simply stick to my predetermines SmO2 value. If there is a so called drift then I would need to find out the new values for the warmer temps.  Have you noticed any such drifts in testing?
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Marcel, great question  simple to answer.
  I don't know
 Let's add yet.
 But this is a fascinating question.
 We have by now a pretty good idea on drifts , when we look cardiac hemodynamic and  performance as well when we look respiratory  trends and performance.
 As Marcel points out: it is a question what we like to see  may drift.
 a) when we use wattage as a training guide like many readers may do, than we see a drift in HR at a given wattage.
 The question than arises, whether the same wattage , where we may have 145 HR at the start and after 2 hours we may end with 159 HR really was always the  same performance ( Physiologically ) It was for sure the same wattage but did we have to change the  energy supply as we drift of a stable HR ?
 And if yes, what  kind of change did we created  as a training stimmuli.
 So after  a workout, where we drift off by  maintaining a stable  watt performance, do we drift  through different physiological zoning and  can we than understand why we make progress or not.

 On the other side, when using a fixed HR as many readers may do  and we see a drift of wattage as a result of this, we would have to ask similar questions.

 Now   the  question is, what happens when HR drifts or when performance drifts.
 Can we  understand the impact on the stimulation when observing this facts.

 So here what I will do over the next 2 weeks.
 I will test cases where we either keep  watt stable and where we keep HR stable and use MOXY to   collect data on what is drifting  and what not.
 Than I will show  the ideas in pictures on here.
 The fact is, that I could not find one decent study addressing this question so it is time to look at it.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Marcel , here an initial hint, (not a fact at all as of yet), but   thanks to your question at least an interesting direction.
 I started some testing as explained above.
 Will show  results and  trends, as soon I have at least 20  tests done to have an idea on where it may lead to.
 Here what  just may be one direction to look for and for all the other study groups out there.

MAX LASS ????? +++++ Stable SmO2 level.
 of in other words. can we replace a MAX LASS test with an noninvasive SmO2 ( MOXY  ) assessment.
 I will show soon ,  how it may work , but for the moment.(  to the traditional users of lactate.)
  Make a MAX LASS test as we did 25 years ago, but add the data collection of the SmO2 and tHb  or HbDiff and tHb to it .
Remember the " classical " max lass tests and duration and you can seem why we now can " compare trends in lactate with   information  from MOXY.

If this works we  can " save the 4 - 5 Max Lass  assessments over a one week period by doing a "MAX MOXY assessment " in one simple session or  and IPAHD, where we gather even more info.
 As more  we  test as more interesting trends we will see.
 For all POWER  fans and WINGATE tests  users.
 Stay tuned to some  super interesting findings in this direction and the  question:
 Is a Wingate test really a good indication of anaerobic power ??




Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Ready for Questions, is the title of this section , and that's what Marcel triggered with his interesting question.
I started to do some bigger testing sections and added some  Wingate tests in there.
 Problem :
  The results are so surprising  and so in contrast to what we tell people ( including  me )  that I have to  do many many  more tests before coming out with any trends and  for sure more questions.
 . Like in the discussion on VO2 max  and lactate, where   more an more studies and papers have the  directions changed now and start to at least argue, that VO2 max may not be that great of an idea to use for training intensity  prescription, as well the 2 and 4 mmol lactate and the lactate threshold ( more than 1 mmol increase in one step ) is  more and more under scrutiny.
 What is the  problem now.
 Really nothing , if we accept, that this ideas where not actually wrong , but the best options at the time of the development, but  over time with integration of newer equipment with more direct information we  can add and improve upon older ideas  and get answers instead of theories.
 Here  one big questions I would love to have some comments.
  1. If we see SmO2 dropping ( meaning , that we use oxygen in the working muscle.
 would we like to  say, that this is a sign of a oxygen dependent  workload and O2 is used.
 2. If we see a stop or plateau in SmO2  , is this the start of oxygen dependent Energy production.
 If we see an increase in SmO2 is that a sign of  recovery of  oxygen storage.
 
This questions and potential answer will be very crucial to what we now design and see in strength and interval workouts.
 The result of Wingate , which is based classically on wattage only may have to be reviewed, as we may have same wattage end result on 2 different athletes but 2 very different way , how they reached this wattage end result.
 Give it some thoughts.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
Blame Marcel for this post.
 Here  a first direct input from Marcel's questions on  Drift  ( HR, performance and what is SmO2  doing.
 I do for the moment test, where I keep the wattage stable and we look how the physiological bio markers drift.
 I choose  HR, RF, SmO2 and lactate as the bio marker, as everybody can test this today.
 I will do the full week daily same load same workout same time of the day same   food intake and still  knowing , that it is never the same anyway , but keep it as consistent as possible.
 After that  I will change to fix HR intensity and see  how the drift will be   and  depending on results fixed SmO2 and look at  drift and fixed RF.
 The fixed lactate is somewhat more difficult out of  all very often discussed reasons.
 So here the  fixed wattage trial and the outcome form one of the tests.
 The intensifies as you can see are based on a IPAHD, you can see how the result is used and  what the other parameters like HR , RF , lac and  wattage where doing in the test.
 This is a  great example what can be done once we  come out with a BIO watch.
 Have fun and please take it apart , ask questions and you may get perhaps a decent answer or a question back to start all over again.

Marcel

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 54
 #7 
Juerg this is in reply to the EUK Moxy feed on 'question n HR drift and SmO2'.

Looking at the two overlapped graphs there is a big physiological change, so there isn't just heart rate drift as you mentioned but the answer to my original question also drift in the SmO2 as we can see, of course there could be exceptions depending on a persons limitation. When im fatigued my heart rate drops (possible plasma volume expansion with increase in Stroke volume?) so that could give a different SmO2 graph. The second assessment you mention that the session could not be completed so would the higher SmO2 in the case study for the same given Wattage indicate fatigue? So the muscle isn't able to use as much O2 as the previous day? In the case study heart rate, SmO2 lactate RF etc went up.

When would a higher SmO2 be better...if the muscle had made a structural adaption and became more efficient then it could show a higher SmO2 and would need a higher workload before it drops to the same SmO2 level as blue.

What I really dont know without more info is what did you do as a intervention in the afternoon after the first test?
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Marcel great thoughts.
 2 points we have to get  our brains around as well are :
 NIRS assesses oxygenation.
1. The  limitation or problem, but perhaps as well additional info is , that it can't make a difference between O2  loaded on Hb  or loaded on myoglobin.
 So the question is, whether a structural change due to training , which may increase the myoglobin may show up as a higher SmO2.
 Or if an increase in vascularisation takes place  so better blood circulation in the tested area, whether this would increase  SmO2.
Plus  as well changes i mitochonrial density  and possibly many more questions.

2. The intervention between day one and day 2 was.
  Day one workout as you can see  followed by a 1 hour Spiro Tiger respiratory workout.
  3 liter bag  with 45 RF on the old Spiro Tiger sport . So 3 x 45 x 30 % set up = 175 L VE.
 This is the top workout for this person  for respiration. So a complete overload of the respiratory muscle system.
 Interesting is, that I had a discussion with a Ph.D guy , who simple push this idea under the table, that we can breathe  VE in that range.  Unfortunately we have here in our small local town every day workouts with  Ice hockey player  and some of them ( Junior A players and NHL prospects ) use 6 liter bags with RF of 30 and up to 50 so they move VE of 250 L and more.
 True  in the "classical" university this  is not possible or ever seen, as the same discussion partner admitted , that he does not know what a Spiro Tiger is and how it works.
 That's why we than make a clear " expert " statement based on titles and the statement is .
 It can't be done.
 Well MOXY will open many open thinking brains, that there are many " principles" which may have to be reviewed in the practical application.
 Summary . The intervention was a complete blow out of the respiratory system to see, how a completely overloaded fatigues respiratory system may influence the SmO2. And the result is  very clear as we can see.
 Marcel thanks for your input and great feed backs.
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