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Development Team Member
Posts: 54
Hi all,

Not sure if I am reading the graphs wrong but in the forum thread EUK Moxy study result: Ffirst step:  
there is a attached file with a overlap graph where when we look at the overlap of moxy and portamon picture, then SmO2 seems to follow a similar Hb Diff related pattern. Where as the tHb from the Moxy (I assume that this is a tHb reading from the Moxy) seems to have little resemblance
 to to the tHb NIRs graph when overlapped. The values might be different but if both tHb was to be compared shouldn't they follow a similar pattern? Juerg could you please clarify if both the tHb from the Moxy compared to the tHb Portamon is the same thing?
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Marcel , if it the Marcel from UK. I am not surprised , that this question comes from you.
 For all other  readers, marcel has an incredible bog site and marcel give us the link to your site.
 Marcel is a world class biathlete and pushing the edges of physiological training on his own together with a great guy from Dubai / Canada. I will show once pictures or Marcel can show how they test life on the road from a car  physiological parameter.
 No to your question.
 It is the key question on  whether we can substitute the NIRS great but expensive equipment with MOXY
 Here I stupid simple words what  MOXY is doing and what  NIRS is doing.
 Moxy  take the total hemoglobin, lets' say it is  hundred pieces. Than looks how many of this 100 pieces are loaded and if 65 are loaded  we say it is 65 %.
 Hb diff the difference between O2 Hb  - HHb ( loaded  tHb- unloaded.
 We tried  originally to use TSI which stands for Tissue saturation index, versus SmO2 which stands for muscle oxygenation saturation. Now TSI is tissue including skin. So changes in temperature , as well as pressure  from outside as well from muscle tension change the scattering pattern  in this idea of TSI % very strong.
 It is perfect under labcndition in an operation room as the blood volume and the rest is very good controlled. It runs into  trouble , when used in real live active situation. We have situation, where the TSI increases extreme during a step test . See pic below
First pic is the formula for NIRS Portamon and is  perfect in stable tHb.
 Moxy in simple terms uses the right lower section of the formula , where you can see it is SmO2  %= O2Hb / ( O2Hb + HHb) which basically is tHb. So it is the same, but the part before is very different in assumption.
 The change in tHb during a step test or heat or cold is very real and as such we have a very intense vascularisation reaction in the skin and muscle. But the skin is very extreme in the ability to get rid of  heat or protect from heat loss. So in a test , where top athletes with extreme vascularisation react you have the "paradox reaction, that they increase TSI % see pic.
 Once a few years back we saw this we tried to get answers from many places, but no answer and no attempt to try to  find at least publically an answer.
Once I got MOXY in may hand I  repeated  100 of different smaller and bigger " tricks " to see, whether we would get the same reaction. It  never happened that extreme , we still have some questions but well  that is always the case.
 The fact , that MOXY  measures only in the muscle the O2 iff  at the same blood volume is equal  trend like SmO2. If blood volume changes it  will be different  but not extreme different.
That's why Hbdiff  from the Portamon is very close to SmO2 Only in cases with an extreme vascularisation difference ( top athletes or extreme heat or extreme cold , we have some difference. I have many test overlapped and this was always the case.  In). In  Portamon we can use T1 T3 ( different depth to see that. In MOXY  use Hbdiff and Smo2 to see that.
 In Portamon you have QCF ( quality control factor) in Moxy I use adipose tissue info as the QCI quality control index.
In summary:
 Hbdiff in Portamon and SmO2 in MOXY have very close to the same trend. hen we look at tHb and they are close to the same than we have Hbdiff and SmO2  nearly the same. The change in trend is the same place.
 Hb diff can be used to guide as relative values by biasing at each start of each workout.
 SmO2 will be like TSI an absolute value and we like to  test , whether this value is a real guide for training intensity .
 To be able to do this we have to find the value , where we are in a homeostasis and than we can go from there. That's the idea of IPAHD ( UrPAHD )
 So yes tHb will be often different, but over time you will see how the tHb in MOXY seems to make more sense , comparing with the tHb from Portamon , when we use it , where we have huge  blood volume changes in the surface and muscle.
 Hope this makes physiological sense but if you look for mathematical explanations  Roger is the guy to ask.

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Development Team Member
Posts: 54
Juerg, thanks for the explanation and feedback and kind words although I wouldn't call myself world class, perhaps more like racing at a world class level and attempting to become a world class athlete, still missing another 2min or so before I am world Class. Here a link to my site, needs a update though.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Marcel hit as so often a very critical point in the understanding of MOXY as an integral part of modern  taring methods.
 My fear is and it already shows up. that we will have some mathematician looking for tangents and any kind of fancy equations  to move against a SmO2 "curve" to predict an average SmO2 value so all people can workout there.
 It will be a repeat by itself as we had many many years back with lactate curve.
 The simple fact, that  people try to  compare the lactate threshold with a MOXY value or a Ventilatory threshold with a cross over of a Moxy values shows the direction the science  moves in comparison what we  like to achieve as a practical coach and athlete.
 Remember the simple fact, that this values are very very individual and even intraindividual  reactions.
 Well  MOXY values are one  of many  BIO markers and as such have to be looked upon as a part of a team feedback.
 You have 4 rowers in a boat and each of them will have by the same speed of the boat a very individual physiological makeup in HR RF and so on.
  An optimal coordination of these 4 rowers  will bring an optimal time  in the race.
 As such the inter-rower coordination  is so important.
 Moxy is one of our " Team  member  and has the advantage  that we see fast  and easy  how  he reacts. As such we than have to go back and see the different trends we identify in a MyPAHD w and see, what other " team member " respiration hart, coordination strength did some changes at this points.
 We have by  a wattage of 140 a sudden change in the trend of SmO2.
 That is all we know. That's why we go back to the coach and or the center , where they can add the otter toys and than we have more info.
 So in this above example  140 watt SmO2 suddenly drops very  fast. So we go and check  what may have happened with respiration or  cardiac hemodynamic or SEMG activity .
 Let's stay with respiration as most  centers have a VO2  equipment.
 A  change in Tv to a smaller tidal volume but a higher RF will change your CO2 situation.
 In the lungs very very fast a few breath , in the blood gas much slower. Nevertheless a trend towards a low TV and a high RF will create a hypocapnic situation. With this a shift of the O2 Diss curve to the left and with this a much better loading situation  of O2  onto the Hb but a much harder situation to unload  from Hb to the muscle cell. As such we may see an increase in SmO2.
 Now if we have a drop than we  may have the opposite.
 So   by 140 watt the respiration  system may start to  get better coordinated and ready to move  more air , better ventilation and better location of ventilation. So you may breath deeper and slower , CO2 will increase and as such the O2 Diss curve will move towards the right side so easier unloading  so SmO2  may drop faster . What comes with this is an increase in  vasodilatation and tHb may  go up as well so more blood which is loaded comes to the mussel and so on.
 I did   a huge numbers of tryouts to see,what the approximate time lag would be. Will post   picture here as it is fascination to see when looking at different depth  when and how the vasuclarisation in an person may react, if it can react. Here for the readers, Marcel  with a specific  training  system  working out.

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