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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
I know I will throw myself in front of  hungry critics, but   it seems this is the fun part of exercise physiology  or trying to find answers.
 The most common mails I am getting now are mails, where clients sent in test results from what every test they do and feel comfortable and have the most experience.
. Than they follow the data collection with the most common question.
 Where would I put the  different zoning to it. ?
 If you go through the training ideas and training philosophy history of "Zoning', you will  very fast see, that the " progress" was, it was in just simply adding more zones to it.
 It all started relative controlled with an " aerobic" zone and an "anaerobic" zone. The simplicity was great and the task was easy to follow.
 There was, as so often , when we have a simple system ( 220 - age , Max watt and %   2 and 4 mmol ) a clear risk for finding relative fast clients, who simply did not fit into this system.
 So the simple aerobic / anaerobic zone got an  addition which was called AANUB
 aerob - anaerobe uebergangs zone which means translate, a section between aerob and anaerob.
 To " improve" our services we started to add more and more zones to it and where even able to convince our clients, that we can go on 1 % accurate  in understanding what is happening.
 The end result was a great printout with impressive information all calculated in mathematical accurate % numbers.
 The actual idea, that physiological systems  are steady  changing due to  adaptation and disruption, the fact , that hopefully a training program  will improve something and therefor will change the reaction who  is limiter and who is compensator, is often push into the dark, as it is not nice to tell your client, that he has to give feedback and that it  is a not a cookbook but a team approach  between  client and coach  or your body and your brain.It is the fundamental problem of the dialectic contradiction of adaptation .
 We all know that, we seem just not  to be able to use or accept it.The  famous word, never change a winning team is possibly one of the most common phrases. The  interview answer of many top athletes, that they basically repeated the last years success full approach program ,shows the interesting competition between physiological reactions and physical load repetition. 
 The most interesting part in the live of a  world class athlete is, that at the end of his racing life  he most often will tell you , that he trained far too much and if he would have known than , what he knows now, he coupled have done possibly different.
 Why is that?:
 I think the main reason is, that we are stuck on absolute performance and absolute numbers.
 We are stuck in one specific direction and  all, including me ,have a problem to  see, that  we have to learn to combine  many different feedback options.
 We  get stuck on results and if we have one good result we " blame" it on what we do.
 Which may be true, but how about the results, who not immediately show up or show up different , than just in an absolute performance.
 How about the fact, that I may be somewhat slower in a race but have or had much more fun as I could enjoy the race. Many other options of improvement of  " performance" .
 So here the food  for thoughts.
 I believe the only real performance zone we  can have  fixed as a way of knowing we are for sure in that zone is  an  ALL out performance. Where we burn on all systems  as hard as possible. Limiter is pushed over the  edge as well as compensator who now in an all out performance as well will be a LIMITER.
 All other  intensities are  speculation on the base, that  any of our physiological systems are  every day   on the same level of recovery and really work always the same.
 Here a very simple example, why this may be  a great  thought  but ???? and  a way how we close our eyes ( or better brains ) to avoid  some thinking as we go out for the next workout.
 Example.
 You go out in a zone ( your name of the zone ) , where you know you will mainly relay on  glucose as the energy source of choice.
 You have the proper wattage load from your test and your may even use  your HR to actually combine two markers, a Bio marker and a physical marker.
 One day  you had perfect time  to  load your glucose storage as well as hydrated properly.
 The training feels great HR and wattage are perfect, feeling is great.
 The next time you repeat the same wattage   zoning load you had a bad  day in the office ,no lunch break due to a too long meeting, stress on the way home due to traffic and no time to get anything ready for your workout, as the days are getting shorter.
 You go out at the same wattage  somewhat different HR and  bad feeling, hard to go ,  bad RPM , everything feels laboring  on all body parts ??????
 Nevertheless this is the zoning you have to go as you had it tested in a costly  VO2 max test or what ever system we use including ours.
  What is missing here.?
 Possible the ECGM the extended central governor in your brain. Your coach , or you  failed to  show, how we have to combine the different physiological systems with each other to help to understand who and what system today may be in a very different " mood " of a workout in the " ZONING" who was calculated or tested.
 This is the reason  why BIO markers like HR, RF and MOXY  combined with wattage will be  a great tool for learning to accept the physiological ongoing reactions  and as such will enhance the quality of a workout.
 In the above case SmO2 will have a very paradox reaction as many will learn over the next few month, once they start to enjoy the  live feedback from a  great new bio marker tool.

 Once you start to understand the interaction between cardiac, respiratory and muscular systems  on how they create a physical performance wattage  than you can see, why we believe an assessment has to offer these physiological system a chance to respond to the physical stress we apply.
 Classical VO2 max tests, as well as  test like accepted Wingate test,  simply force a physiological reaction upon a client rather than the physiological reaction will show up in a physical performance.
 It is not the  VO2 max who will predict the performance, it is the  performance who demands a certain VO2  reaction. ( whether it is the max or not depends on the time frame we give to the body to  react optimal  as a team with all systems involved,.
 This leads to a very interesting assessment result.
 The result is:
 Here  we  see how you physiological react this is your " Zoning" or physiological reaction of your HR compared and combined with your respiration which will create this  oxygenation or deoxygenation pattern.
 In short . VO2 max = CO x (a-v) O2 difference . where
 CO is  HR x SV  ( and as well CCT ( cardiac contraction time as the result of HR x LVET ). for advanced test centers (this is done with a non invasive  equipment like the physio flow.)
  than x ( a- v) O2 difference, which is the result of many often shown  structural  changes including some functional reactions as ( a-V ) O2 difference tested with  the MOXY is directly dependent on the respiratory reactions and as such  on the shift or the O2 diss curve.

 Once you have the moxy you will see, that respiration can be used for loading and unloading of O2  on the one side on the source of exchange of O2  in the lungs, but than as well in the muscle for  energy production.
 You basically can decide, whether you like,  even in a  recovery intensity) to add some " aerobic" or anaerobic loads to it.
 It is completely independent of wattage load, it is simply a question of using  physiological reactions to  decide, what kind of intensity or stimuli you like to create at a certain time in your training program.
 To be able to do this you need live feedback.
 Example:  a classical 2/2 respiration rate, which is considered a race pace  ( 4 mmol ) intensity ) see the fun research done to Hollmann's  50 years birth day from his students.( Late 1980)
  may be a great  idea, but many test  we  did now show, that a  fixed  same in same out rate can be  a bad idea for SmO2 reaction. some people will benefit from 2/3  or 3/2 or  even  double inspiration follow by one set expiration.The only way you can play with different rates  of respiration  is the same  way how you can play with different RPM on a bike or different running frequencies or stroke rates. Training of the  needed systems , so in this case the respiratory system.
 The reason is a often individual dysbalance of the inspiratory and expiratory systems so that for the same  air volume one direction may need much more time  than the other direction. If you keep same time slots, but less air flows in or out you create a  problem. ( Which one ) ? This can be given due to resistance ( see  swimming) but as well due to the actual motion of the sport , see  cross country double pole and or rowing  catch or release phase.  Spiro Tiger user have a great tool to actually find out the dysbalance of the respiration by using the Smart software and  soon the new Mirror software, where your  Spiro Tiger competency center can guide you over distance to a specific  respiratory idea.
 Once we have the dysbalance established we than can use the Spiro tiger first and later the actual respiration by adding the now additional resistance  parts  to  the end inspiration or expiration.
 We hope to have them available for anybody soon, as we are in the last stage of testing them out with the idea to see how the CO2 reaction may be due to the additional effort of either the inspiratory or expiratory muscles.
 Summary 
1 Zone: the all out Zone is clear. ( you do not need a test to find this zone. or do you need one ???
 All other zones are clear,as soon you  understand the interaction of the different systems   and how the correlate to your wattage based intensity. The only thing you need is a live feedback from your body ( muscles reaction ) on the ability to oxygenate or deoxygenate. ( MOXY may be the answer )
 Problem.
 You need a thinking athlete  and combine it with a thinking coach, which adds up to a higher cost for an individual program.
 Or you sent in your age, body weight, sex , body height and shoe size and  your coaching company's computer will randomly design a randomly program which looks  great and makes good money, but ???????
  Your turn
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Here you will see the "dilemma" we are in with philosophy versus practical application. Here some questions from a great coach from the south I got this morning. 

Thanks Roy great questions and it helps us to understand where most people will have some or similar questions.

Here in short.

a) if people " believe " in LT" lactate threshold, than they would benefit from MOXY immensely as they would see over time, when combining both, that LT is a reflexion of an earlier change in SmO2 in the muscle. Lactate is a great bio marker to give information on metabolic changes and energy needs but it is lagging in time behind the actual situation in the muscle. MOXY will give you the actual live information.

The other part is, as so often discussed, Lactate is NOT the reason of a problem but much rather an additional information of some metabolic reactions, which could signal some performance limitation but it not has to be that way. So MOXY really is not a fancy equipment. Fancy would be a Portamon NIRS equipment which is an incredible great equipment but as you by now know very expensive to just try something new. If people decide to buy a MOXY and start to use oxygenation information Fortiori tamed up with EUK holding eukholding@gmail . com.

If you invest a few dollars you will get a great information and education session or sessions in as well as help with interpretations and printouts and how to run tests.
Physio Flow is an incredible equipment somewhat more money as well and for sure something which may be added after you are very confident into the simple testing versions.

Zoning .

With a HR monitor and MOXY SmO2 you can start some very simple but real individual zoning information's.

Here in simple words.

You will have three possible clear zoning s.

1. The intensities, where your working muscle is getting more O2 delivered, than he needs.

2. An intensity , where you balance the need of O2 intake and demand.

3. An intensity , where you use more O2 than you can deliver so it is just a question of time before you look into some problems of energy delivery.

This is really for the moment the only method, where we have this information live any time we go for a workout.

As this " zoning " can change as you mentioned due to fatigue for one or the other physiological system we now have a way of adjusting on that day to the actual physiological intensity zoning we plan do do and not relay on a wattage number, which may be far to high or too low on that day.

What you need is a performance info like wattage if you like or a HR info and you combine this with MOXY and you adjust daily live depending on your coaches idea on how to train..

This at the beginning may be some open questions, as you not run brainless with a fixed number for a zoning but adjust to a fixed zoning intensity by looking the trend of the numbers. Hope this makes sense. I will show without name this great question on the http://www.moxymonitior.com forum

 last but not least.
 The most "dangerous  people in sport science are the GURU's as it changes from science to religion and than we are lost in believes rather than able to look at facts and change them , even tough they may not confirm our current ideas and we may have to change  to the facts rather to defend the theory.


Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 08:00:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Moxy
From:
To: juergfeldmann@hotmail.com

1) Is Moxy a add on or replacement for LT testing? I have been following your work for the past few years and I understand your basic concepts, I believe. If I were to use the Moxy with HR and Watts would I be able to produce meaningful training zones for athletes?? or would I still need other equipment to do so. In thinking about it zones are going to be relative to the limiter or compensator I would assume. If the muscles are the limiter and the heart(cardio) is the compensator the numbers might not show a true picture of lets say threshold energy system. If we are to use Mox in place of LT as a marker would this provide more meaningful training zones? What would this test look like and would it be something a person who is not a Guru sports physiologist could perform?
 
I am ready to make the purchase of the MOX but my concern is I will buy this fancy piece of equipment and be lost on how to use it effectively and provide value to my athletes.
 
2) How does Physio Flow work into the mix? Could this be added on later in the or does this come first in the list of tools to purchase. Ideally, I would like to secure 1 testing item and learn it before adding on more and becoming overwhelmed.
 
 
Thanks in advance
 


On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 12:38 AM, juerg feldmann <juergfeldmann@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hallo xyz , thanks for the in-depth mail and great questions.
I will forward the mail to the USA inventor of MOXY as well to one of the very advanced testing labs close to you , who uses most of the latest non-invasive equipment out there for assessments.
Lets' try to make a short answer but possibly create more questions.
1. MOXY is the possibly biggest step forward in exercise physiological testing since the Douglas bag and VO2 in the 1920. It is the first time we can afford noninvasively to see immediate changes in the O2 needs and delivery during a workout.
MoxY is a great add on for testing but even more important a must have after that for the athlete to see, what he is doing it is an add on to Watt , HR and RF.
2. A top lab this days would make great step forward if they would have any kind of a VO2 testing system for respiratory assessments than combine this in the beginning if you like with lactate but you will see that NIRS moxy will replace this fast. Add a cardiac information in like a Physio flow and you are already far above and beyond, what current so called top centers offer.
The early NIRS equipment was without doubt the Portamon but there is a slightly difference now between 15'000 $ and just below 1000 $ for the MOXY.
3. Help. We have now an international service center office in Switzerland, so people starting out or adding NIRS and other tools for testing can get a service help there for one test 3 test or as many as you lie so you will get printouts and information and you basically have an ongoing education on what is coming in new.
4. Spiro Tiger is a training device fro respiratory muscles whether they are weak or compensator.
YOu can use Spiro Tiger as well to simulate hypoxic workouts and now combining with MOXY you have an immediate feedback.
You are lucky as the top guy in the USA is close by you as well and he is as well the distributor of Spiro Tiger in the USA as well works close with MOXY . Clint freezing is his name and this mail as well will go to him.
So this is for the moment a start but please feel free to come back with questions and I will try to answer them as good as possible.
Cheers Juerg
Here short an intro of the people ( team)we will invite to give you some more professional answers.
Roger and Stuart , the brains behind MOXY
Andri the research and study and help center in Switzerland. EUK
Clint the Spiro Tiger and assessment center in the USA Georgia
Therese the CEO and Manager of EUK and Spiro Tiger Northamerica ( FaCT -Canada )
 

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2013 17:15:17 -0400
Subject: Moxy
From:
To: juergfeldmann@hotmail.com


Juerg,
 
We spoke about a year ago and since I have started my own coaching company based in yyy I work out of a sports performance center in the area and we pride ourselves on the use of technology. We currently have the only mobile wind tunnel in the country and have paired this with the Retul fit system to provide one of the most high tech fits you can get. We have worked with some Pro teams like aa and bb.
 
The reason for my email is I have a few questions as I look to add things of value to my company. First, the MOXY systems seems to be the replacement for LT testing in the sports performance world. From the limited amount that I read it seems to provide better markers that will allow coaches to provide more meaningful training zone(energy systems training), does this seem correct? How difficult is the use of this equipment and understanding?? Is it similar to LT testing in that you will follow the trend line and it will be clear when you hit certain bio markers? My concern is purchasing this equipment and not being able to administer the test properly and obtain the needed data.
 
Second, from your ECGM model the tools needed are MYOXY, HR, O2 and Bioharness. Does this seem about right. I am new to this so as I obtain these items what are the best uses for these or a better question is can you point me in the direction so i can research on my own.
 
OK, one more question as it relates to Spirotiger. This is more of a device to help train a limiter in the respiratory system? would this be about correct?
 
 
Thanks for your time,


 
 
 
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 12:07:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Moxy
From:
To: juergfeldmann@hotmail.com

OK final email today and thanks for you time,
 
1) Zoning: Yes your summary is bang on. . What we try to avoid is using current classical terms of AT , LT and so on to avoid confusion.
So we use new terms to not confuse one with the other..
The problem is with VT = LT + AT = ANT. so lot's of terms and many different ideas what they mean.
So no " threshold idea here just simply intensities, where we have the three options you explain nicely below there.. Yes critical lactate threshold believer should take still lactate so they are getting confident, that we actullay can switch from an invasive time delay idea to an non invasive direct information.
 
- so with Watts/HR and Moxy you would not really need LT testing equipment? maybe would not hurt but not really needed, sound about right?
- As it relates to zoning you basically described the 3 intensity levels more or less:
* O2 delivered we will call below threshold levels
* Balance O2 threshold
* O2 above threshold levels.
 
I would assume the Moxy could pick out these points during a standard protocol test and with the use of HR/ Watts you could determine markers/ranges for each zone. Sound close?
Yes and no.
If you take a classical 3 min test you have some problems , due to the fact, that the time intervallss are far to short for an optimal chance to a physiological reaction.
We use with MOXY, if we use step test idea 5 min steps to see a clear reaction and trend.
That's where EUK will come in to help you a few times and than you will be the pro as well the MOXY and FaCT- Canada forum, where you can ask questions and we hopefully can give some decent answers back.
Your conclusion above is correct but simply change to a 5 min step lenght to make it much more visual or start using our homeostasis disuption protocol and you have it super clear.
 
This pretty much opens up a wide range of possibilities if this is true? You could run testing in the field for any type of sessions run/bike/swim and even strength training. By setting up different test protocol over time you could really design some custom programs.
Yes your are right this options will enhance and make a lot of fun for new training ideas.
Think alone on intervall options, where you not use 1 min or 3 min or what ever fixed rest epriod or 10 reps or 30 seconds load, but you see, whne your target goal of SmO2 deloading is reached and whne you have reloaed and you have a very individual intervall triaig program designed for that day and this physiological conditions. Your answer is absolutely corretc. You start to developp into a GURU ( smile )
 
Example: Swim
* Using Moxy you could have an athlete swim 100s at different intensity levels, use the Moxy to help design a recovery periods and by the end of the session create some meaningful swim zones for them to train with. You could also use this to determine if the heart or the muscles are the limiters or conpensators?
 
Yes you are absolutely right . Coaches will start to use physiological meaningfull workouts and not physical easy to control coaches pleasing 10 sets 100 m workouts.
 
* Cycling you could use wattage and HR to perform some of the same testing.
Absolutely right and very easy and great to do so anytime on a wattage trainer or even in the field if you have wattage on your bike. Like during a camp as a part of warm up.
 
Is my line of thinking off base??
No your thinking is perfect but possibly of base for people not thinking outside the BOX , hanging desperatly on the defence line to justify 2 and 4 mmol as the true gospel or % of Max VO2 as the way to go. Smile
 
2) Fortiori tamed up with EUK holding eukholding@gmail . com.
 
This is a group that would provide some educational assistance and help with using the equipment for a fee? If so that sounds perfect. Apsolutely right. It is actually my Son who runs the education and testing center in Switzerland for all european newcomers but as well for us in Northamerica.
 
 
 
Sorry for all the emails just want to make sure I secure the right equipment for my needs and not purchase something that I cannot use. Dont' be sorry your questions are great and very very welcome Juerg
 
Thanks for all the help
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