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ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #1 

Inspired by some of Sebo’s puzzles for the forum, here is another one, which hopefully provides some fun. 

Below are the graphics of two cycling 5-1-5 assessments, as well as the accompanying data attached. The Moxy was on the left deltoid muscle for both assessments. 

One of the assessments was completed on 26 April 2017, in a rested state. The other assessment was done on 2 May 2017, in a fatigued state (the period 28 April – 1 May represented a 4 day stage race, +-350km, +- 5500m of elevation). I flipped a coin to see which should be allocated “A” and which should be allocated “B”, so this allocation of names was totally random.

Each morning, out of interest, I also took resting (lying down on back, +-2.5 minutes) HRV and resting Sm02 readings (right RF muscle), summarised in the table below

 Date

Resting Sm02

Resting HR

HRV

Mean RR

 

RMSSD

Ln(RMSSD)

SDNN

NN50

PNN50

Reference: Average over past month

 

55

61

 

 

 

 

 

 

25 April

75.8%

50

61

1189 ms

52.83

3.97

46.19

48

38.095%

26 April

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

27 April

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

No reading

28 April

74.8%

59

61

1012 ms

53.61

3.98

86.79

43

29.054%

29 April

72.4%

56

64

1066 ms

64.11

4.16

106.78

67

47.857%

30 April

79.7%

54

63

1114 ms

61.51

4.12

76.17

59

44.030%

1 May

81.0%

67

56

894 ms

37.56

3.63

74.15

21

12.651%

2 May

78.6%

55

63

1082 ms

61.39

4.12

75.01

48

35.294%

 Questions for discussion

  • Which assessment was in the rested state and which was in the fatigued state – no guessing [smile], you should motivate your answer
  • Was there any material change to the limiter (and compensator) across the two assessments

  Power Comparison.jpg  HR Comparison.jpg  Sm02 Comparison.jpg  ThB Comparison.jpg 


ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #2 
data file attached

 
Attached Files
xlsx Data comparison workbook.xlsx (662.39 KB, 11 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #3 
That is great  fun  and will look for sure this evening  closer  to this  interesting datas.
sebo2000

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Posts: 214
 #4 

Hi Ryan

This is very cool, thanks for sharing, You kind of look tired in both cases by looking at Smo2 and tHb[smile] How well did you rest before this race [wink]?


By looking at HR I say:Workout A is after the race and Workout B is before, when I'm tired I always find my top HR few points less at the same power.

Looking at SmO2, usually it dropps deeper after being tired (on priority muscle), but it does not recover as high, in your case Workout A drops deeper but apparently it recovers higher after being tired..., it could be that your respiratory system didn't get that much of a workout...

tHb swings are also less pronounced  when one is fatigued, but in your case it looks like Workout B would be after the race , this could be due to very tired leg muscles. tHb does not fit the picture of priority muscle, looks like tHb Workout A is actually HR Workout B.

When looking at Smo2 and tHb it does match Workout A and B, Higher Smo2 recovery higher tHb. it would indicate Workout A was before the race and Workout B after, especially when looking at the tHb trend (less amplitude) but that contradicts with HR data.

Another possibility you switched HR workout names to make it harder? [smile] How can we explain lower HR and higher tHb amplitude after the race, increased plasma volume? maybe I’m getting to carried away. Higher tHb amplitude could also be explained by very tired\”tight legs” blood volume has to go somewhere and despite lower HR we would see that in slightly higher tHb on Deltoid…

I have seen in my calibration tests, my VL tHb and smo2 can indicate really tired small tHb rebounds and low Smo2, but Deltoid data is completely opposite indicating systemic improvements, maybe that is the case here as well.

Workout A After
Workout B Before 

juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Ryan don't give the answer out yet I am still looking  at it as I had no time last night.
 So will compare with Seboos  feedback and than will look at some trends to see, whether  some  findings we believe may tell more hold up in your case and than try to explain h why we see that  and it may fit or we may have a different outcome so than we need more sampling again as so often as  there are some great open questions all the time.
ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #6 
Sebo

Thanks for the thoughts.

I will let the thread develop a bit before giving any answers to let others share their thoughts.

A few quick points:
  • You spoke of priority muscle. I think you realise that this was a non-priority muscle, but in case it is not clear this data is for a non-priority muscle in both instances.
  • I definitely did not switch heart rate data to make the puzzle harder (or by accident) etc
  • I was well rested in the "before race" 5-1-5 (i did a longish ride on 23 April, and then took a few days off to the 26 April).
  • I don't necessarily think that higher tHb amplitudes and lower HR are inconsistent when considered in the context of CO = HR x SV
ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #7 

Ryan don't give the answer out yet I am still looking  at it as I had no time last night.
 So will compare with Seboos  feedback and than will look at some trends to see, whether  some  findings we believe may tell more hold up in your case and than try to explain h why we see that  and it may fit or we may have a different outcome so than we need more sampling again as so often as  there are some great open questions all the time.

Haha, Juerg don't worry i will wait a while for you to have some fun with the puzzle.
sebo2000

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Posts: 214
 #8 
Lets get this rolling, don't say anything, until we have more people commenting.

A few quick points:
  • You spoke of priority muscle. I think you realise that this was a non-priority muscle,
Absolutely, problems is: my mind shift, I know it is Deltoid but I think VL reactions [smile]

  • but in case it is not clear this data is for a non-priority muscle in both instances.
  • I definitely did not switch heart rate data to make the puzzle harder (or by accident) etc
  • I was well rested in the "before race" 5-1-5 (i did a longish ride on 23 April, and then took a few days off to the 26 April).
  • I don't necessarily think that higher tHb amplitudes and lower HR are inconsistent when considered in the context of CO = HR x SV
Yes agree SV increased, higher tHb amplitude. But I again think VL, I'm sure your tHb on VL looked different, quite different due to muscle fatigue.

I have to now switch my own observations to Deltoid, or I will become VL oriented, I hope it is not to late. 

How did the race go, pictures look amazing, which one is you [smile]?

http://www.panoramatour.co.za/photo-galleries/2017-photo-gallery

I'm so jealous of the weather, in Canada we also have 30C temperatures on the weekends: 10 on Friday, 10 on Saturday and 10 on Sunday....total 30C [smile]




ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #9 
How did the race go, pictures look amazing, which one is you [smile]?

http://www.panoramatour.co.za/photo-galleries/2017-photo-gallery

I'm so jealous of the weather, in Canada we also have 30C temperatures on the weekends: 10 on Friday, 10 on Saturday and 10 on Sunday....total 30C [smile]


Thanks for the photos Sebo. I had not looked at them - none of me though! The race was great, its a unique format where you ride with a partner. I had a friend out from Australia so we rode together, he was not as fit as he had hoped and battled to acclimatize so we just rode his pace behind the main bunch (probably why no photos, and also perhaps why this Moxy puzzle is a bit harder than if i had raced hard).

The race is in a beautiful part of the South Africa, right near a famous national park with the typical wild african animals (lion, rhino, giraffe - etc) - it is a very special place. Maybe you should bring your family out sometime and come and ride, and make a holiday of it [smile]. There is another stage race in the wine lands region with a bonus that you can do the Cape Town Cycle Tour immediately after too (largest timed race in the world 35 000 cyclists take part and must be one of the most beautiful road races in the world - see photo below [wink]). Because of the weak exchange rate, South Africa honestly offers unbeatable value as a holiday destination (after the cost of your flight), weather is great, totally unique place and there is lots to see. Crime is a problem, but if you use common sense and take precautions it is totally avoidable. Maybe i should get Roger to organise the next Moxy Summit here - haha.

ctct.jpg 

Anyway enough of the chit-chat - back to the puzzle!
 

bobbyjobling

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Posts: 207
 #10 
ryinc, it looks like a cool race [smile]

And thanks for the puzzle. I haven't looked at the csv file yet [frown] but I think workout A is the fatigued condition and workout B is the rested one.

Thb reactions of workout A during the load phase have greater amplitudes compared to workout B. This could be an indication of greater CO2 in the blood ( right shift of disscurve) and SmO2 tends to disaturate to a lower level due to right shift of disscurve. If we have more CO2 in the blood would this increase SV?

If we look at the rest phase, THb reduces to the same level as in the calibration phase,it could indicate that the heart is able to maintain PB therefore I not consider it to be the limiter.

Is the respiratory system the new limiter?

DanieleM

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Posts: 264
 #11 
Hi rync,

I also looked at HR first...and I think Workout A is after the race.
The reason for me is that your legs tired and they cannot use all the capability of the Delivery system so in the last load HR is lower.

SmO2 and tHB are actually very similar except the last hard load.
I think that after the race the VL would have shown a less desaturation.
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #12 
okay started  to play  so  just to be sure.
 Here a  question.
  So  we have  HR  and SmO2  and tHb collected   recovered  and fatigued.
 Now  you separated  all 3 infos  ( HR  SmO2  and tHb  and gave  them   A  or  B.
 So  example  A  in HR  my be recovered  and B  my  be fatigued.
 
 Thhna  A  in tHb  may  be  as well recovered    due  to the coing  toss and B  my be  fatigued.
 but then  due to the coin  A  for  SmO2   may be fatigued  and  B  my  be recovered ?

  And not  so  that  the dasa on your  excel  where  all A  are  recovered  and all B  are  fatigued. ?
 Do  you see what I mean ?  Now  the fun  than is  to allocate    HR  tHb  and SmO2  to  A  or B  ?
ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #13 
Hi Juerg, i will double check that i did not mess up bu the intentuon is all three traces labelled A are from the same 5-1-5, and all three traces labelled B are from the same 5-1-5.
ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #14 
Juerg, I made sure the data is correct.  So workout A for tHb, Sm02 and HR are all the same 5-1-5 assessment and B are for the same workout.
sebo2000

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Posts: 214
 #15 
I had the same doubts as Juerg, and the longer I think about this case, the more feeling I have Rayn was "sandbagging" in that race [wink] (riding with his less fit teammate [smile] I will not call it sandbagging, I will call team support. [smile]

Title is nicely misleading and made me really think hard, If title would be:

What part shows training improvement after 5 days training... it would be too easy [smile]


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