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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
Antonio welcome  on the  Forum.
  It is nice to have some more feedback from MOXY users so we can discuss and help each other on  developing a very interesting tool for coaches and athletes alike outside the " secret " world of sport science.  We  all cook just with water and  once we start looking at practical applications we see often our limits but as well new  and exiting opportunities.
 I use NIRS ( in specific Portamon ) since years for live feedback during very specific workouts on clients. They are  super motivated, when they can see number in front to push themselves to certain loads and to have their individual recovery time  as they look recovery.
It will be super interesting to see your protocol and learn  from it and  may even be able to give some additional feedback.
  From the practical side an interesting challenge we have is mounting the devices on the  muscles.
 In a set up like a rehabilitation center  I use stretch tape but  for real live we have to see, what we can develop for some easy attachment on any  interesting muscle.
 I  very often combine SEMG with  NIRS to see, which one would be easier for  the  client but I see more and more the situation, where NIRS seems to be easier to use as a feedback , but for the moment SEMG is easier to attach on the different muscles due to its multi channel options.
 So   I look forward and will be very exited  to learn and read from your experience.

Here just for fun a controlled  muscle contraction with T1 and T3 information   from an ACL  rehabilitation program

Attached Images
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Antonio Robustelli

Study Participant
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Posts: 2
 #2 
Hello Juerg,

I am very happy to contribute to the development of training protocols with Moxy device.

I am actually working with Moxy in two ways:

1) functional assessment for my athletes through integration between HRV (heart rate variability analysis), sEMG and Moxy. 

2) hypertrophy/strength training

 later I will begin to post the first data.

Antonio


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Here an initial " warm up " to the protocol we will see from Antonio on strength as well how  HRV  may  be involved and affected by strength as well.
 This will be super interesting , as respiration  and certainly the non respiratory function of the diaphragm  has a direct influence on HRV.
 The second  interesting part when using NIRS  in strength workouts is the difference between scientific induced   occlusion interventions  and  naturally occurring blood  volume changes due to muscular contractions.
 I like to show you some classical  occlusion reactions   in picture 1  and picture 2  and than  a naturally occurring  compression due to  isometric strength  production in a  heavy load workout. You see  the third picture as a super close  look  on tHb and O2Hb and HHb trends including Hb Diff during a  strength workout  from the vastus  medialis.
 Pic one is a set of occlusion as an interval section. Art occlusion.
 Pic 2 is a set of three occlusion test done  from three different  groups with one a perfect art. occlusion  ( Thanks Andri ) and 2  incomplete not perfect designed occlusion test.
Pic 3 is a closer look at a full muscle contraction as it occurs during a strength workout and if you look carefully you can see the different phases, as well the fundamental difference between a  artificial set up occlusion in a study versus a naturally occurring   compression in a workout.

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Antonio Robustelli

Study Participant
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Posts: 2
 #4 
Hello guys,

here a first protocol to try with Moxy device for hypertrophy/strength training:


1) PARTIAL-FULL REP TECHNIQUE 10/10/10 (Thanks to Christian Thibaudeau for his suggestion)
Use a compound movement like Back Squat, Barbell Row, Bench Press, Romanian Deadlift, Military Press and do 10 bottom partials using constant tension, 10 full reps accelerating as much as you can, then 10 top partials using constant tension.
The goal here is to create an hypoxic state in muscles with constant tension and light load for maximixe lactate accumulation and increase in production of both hGH an IGF-1 (Takareda et al. 2000).

LOAD 40-50% 1RM
SETS 3
REPS 10-10-10
REST 90"
NUMBER OF EXERCISES PER SESSION 2

2) CONSTANT TENSION AUXILIARY SETS
Use an auxiliary/isolation movement like dumbell press, biceps curls, triceps extensions, cable pulley etc. and focus on constant tension working muscles hard during every inch of every rep and never allow muscles to relax. 

LOAD 50-60% 1RM
SETS 3-4
REPS 8-12
REST 45"
TEMPO 303
NUMBER OF EXERCISES PER SESSION 2


Your goal is to create an hypoxic state, so control with moxy device the SMO2 levels of target muscles (in relaxed state SMO2 levels could be between 70-87%).

Let me know guys.

Antonio Robustelli
 







Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Great info . Here a question we just discussed in a very international group in Santa Monica. How do you decide by using moxy , whether you are in your target hypoxic stage ?


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
Here a visual to Antonio's information.
 Some people may be questioning :
 What is hypoxic and what is ischemic, when reading many studies about hypertrophy and strength workouts.
 This is a visual from the University of Georgia.

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nlsp

Development Team Member
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Posts: 13
 #7 
Today we used the Moxy as the director of training and ultimately the program was designed after the training. We warmed up until maximum SmO2 i.e. 80% then we lifted weight to drop the SmO2 (40%) till a plateau (plus a few more seconds) then recovered till Sm)2 reach 80% (sometimes overshoot) then repeated till a) could not reach 40% or b) could not recover to 80%. Will repeat for 4 weeks and retest to see change in strength, power, force, and SmO2 i.e. increase above 80% and/or decrease below 40%. The idea is based on physiology, which will show results then we can design a progam.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
It is quite here, despite the fact , that MOXY will be the choice of tool for future strength training sessions.
 So here a question to the  groups out there and to Antonio in specific terms.
  He writes :
 " The goal here is to create an hypoxic state in muscles with constant tension and light load for maximize lactate accumulation and increase in production of both hGH an IGF-1 (Takareda et al. 2000).

Question.
 When you use MOXY:
 what do you consider  and how do you use the SmO2 info  to know that you are :
in a  "  hypoxic state in muscles "
 Can you show us some printout and how they look , location on the muscle , type of workout and   MOXY graph printout.
 Thanks   and we look forward to a great information and hope fully a fruitful discussion.
nlsp

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 13
 #9 
Good morning, here is a Moxy graph showing a Hypoxic workout and the recording sheet. The Athlete is a Hockey player who pushes to the limit. The protocol was to desaturate till a plateau and then continue reps till athlete no longer able and/or the SmO2 begins to rise as the athlete is unable to sustain the contraction. Enjoy 

 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Brian form NEXT Level Sport is possibly one of the rare coaches steady trying to find  a way to  improve outcomes. He runs a great Canada wide organization now and integrates very successful new ideas into traditional  information.
  They do  testing with  literally hundreds of athletes and his information and data collection in the field of NIRS and MOXY is  most likely the best   worldwide , when it comes to practical applications.
 .
 He   is a part of our ongoing drive to create real assessment options.  Testing in the specific sport filed rather than lab bike assessment with  athletes, who   very rarely will be pushing a bike.
 Brina helps me to develop ideas like IPAHD and   IPAHR for  ice hockey as well as integration of   different tools   and equipment in the practical application of testing See pic   Brina  assessing  an athlete on a  skate mill in our small town. A group training with the goal to  change  O2 Diss curve by attracting  desaturation situation. A one by one session with a NHL player Okay enough flowers here.


I like to add some interesting trends we see and where we  for the moment move our attention to.

Three different way we can   use and control physiologically the  load during strength workouts.
The question now of . the next few years will be to see how each of this loads will  change the  result of the workout.
 In the past we used weights and reps randomly and  where hoping it works.
 In the future we will use deoxygenation SmO2   and reoxygenation as a the information of  load and recovery rather than 5 fingers and 20 pounds.
 For people  ready to change but going somewhat slower, they can still use  weight  but control load and recovery over SmO2 rather than time or   finger counts.. Here   a print  from each of the different options  and  there are many more to   be used, like complete recovery , semi complete  recovery and super compensation recovery.  This  prints later.
 So here now basic idea to show how we asses.
 It is super easy and  for coaches using functional workouts ( body weight a great new way to objectively assess load and recovery based n each athletes individual physiology.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #11 
Sorry skate mill pics   was missing. Brina  will be as well the first in Canada, Clint the first in the USA , who will run Spiro Tiger competency centers with the  new Mirror software, which allows them to coach over the   computer  respiratory interventions.
 The key , when adding Respiration to workouts is to  keep in mind hyper and hypocapnia levels.  So SpO2  and EtCO2 testing combined with SmO2 testing . What we hope to achieve is that once an athlete is set up with the proper information he just needs the SmO2   and can check on his wrist the  oxygenation and deoxygenation trends as he works out as planned and set up    for himself or with a coach.
 People interested in any of this ideas can contact MOXY   as  one  plan  in the near future is to add to  the  Spiro Tiger competency Centers as well MOXY competency centers. So readers running already a successful test or assessment center can easy add this additional  information and data collection to their current   test ideas and enhance  and advance   in the competitive field of  sport centers.
 Here    the pics from Brian as well a set of  Spiro Tiger workouts for Core strength combined with Hypoxic hypercapnic parts form a  national coach in Switzerland.

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Roger

Moderator
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Posts: 245
 #12 
Juerg,

I'm fascinated by the 3 strength training graphs that you showed here.  I'm looking to include these in a Power Point that I'm putting together.

On which muscles are the two Moxy sensors located and what type of exercise is being done?

In the third graph, what is going on physiologically when both the exercising muscle and the upper body maintain a plateau for about 4 minutes (Between the red lines) and then abruptly the upper body SmO2 starts to drop?  Is this a specific fatigue response?  Why is the transition so abrupt after 4 minutes of being steady?


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #13 
Thanks for the question. 
1. This  are case study and we need to do much more before we can give a clear answer.   This is why  we will look for many centers who  have MOXY's to be a part of a new development in new ideas of individual strength workouts.
 To the graphs. Duration  on the bottom is misleading as it  is a time unit but not  as in minutes or in seconds. As we have time on the  moxy printout and we have a different set up in the Portamon I  simply neutralized to time to synchronize the values.
 Test set up:
  Moxy on the vastus lateralis  or Portamon on the vastus lateralis.
  or Vica versa.  Optimal may be  later 2 MOXY's on each of the  positions. The upper NIRS was  on a biceps muscle.
 The  exercise: Simple squatting exercise.. We run for the moment  the whole idea  with 2 MOXY's and a  big number of Kids with Brina and Next level  SP  ice hockey  coaching.

 Here what we see.
 Pic 1. The normal drop in tHb and SmO2  as an initial  (  venous washout ) due to  muscular compression . This is important to  understand, when we look later at reactions in SmO2  tHb  and I will show you the  "inside live" of an isometric contraction in the next few days and how we can make  some trend information in rehabilitation of muscles when comparing to the  good side.
 So in Pic one we basically made a  strength load as kept going till SmO2 would reach a possible  actual low level. Than we  started recovery.
 The question here. Is this considered hypoxic or actually  still very " aerobic" as  we see a drop in SmO2 meaning a still  existing ability to use O2.
 In Pic 2 we   push as in  exercise one , than reach the bottom of SmO2 and keep that  level as long we see we can maintain a decent plateau..
 Meaning possibly , that we hit the bottom of O2 use  and now have to try to maintain the contraction by other means than O2  so O2 independent  and using oxygen independent energy sources to maintain the ATP production needed for the workload.
 Question  is this now   Hypoxic  work due to the plateau of SmO2.  We are not sure as we  can create some different  situation and in this case we need again tHb to make the next conclusion out of this.
 Possibly  the case 2  is close to a hypoxic  stimulus.

Case three. We repeat all the above  drop ( washout ) use of available SmO2 , plateau of SmO2 and possibly integration of O2 independent ATP production  and now we keep  pushing through this barrier of discomfort and than we  had a drop in SmO2 in a not involved muscle area.
 ?  Why : Question . There are some ideas out there, that the body will try  to find O2 where ever it is possible. Some cases explain as well this same ability of the body to find glucose in not involved muscles. ( lactate during a ironman in the  marathon section) So our   question here is , whether we have a survival  control by using O2  from other areas of the body to be moved  in desperation to the extreme working   muscle groups.
 If this  is the case, do we than  work suddenly again with O2  after the hypoxici  workload.
 Some may remember Dudley's   work n STF and FTF  fiber activation. where they had the open question , why in absolute  extreme intensity the STF fibers would kick in again.
, despite the common believe , that only STF x and II fibers suppose to be able to create the  ATP needed for this extreme effort. So the question  here is, is this above observe reaction  a possible explanation to Dudley's open question.
 Now what is interesting . If we have athletes doing push ups  so they can do  30 - 50 push ups no problem.
 When we push them into  picture 3 situation with their legs they can barely  do a few push ups after the deoxy situation in their upper  body.
 Why ?
 Summary. This above  ideas have to be followed now trough and Brina started a longer term  study to see, how the  strength gain and reaction's are, when we do  sets   like in Pic  case 3   which  may give 1 - 3 sets  rather than  5 - 10 and whether we have a similar more or less  gain in performance and how  can this gain be   shown in actual sport activity.
 I started to do some deoxy workout by combining  the above ideas but add a hypercapnic hyperpnoea  section in it  so we  have a  extremely fast and deep deoxygenation with SpO2  90 % and EtCO2 about 50 mmHg.
 The interesting part is  that we can do one set only  and the h muscle is really  " fatigued" respectively no performance really anymore available.
 The   subjective part  is , that the patient   feels  much stronger   after  2 weeks and we will  now re asses  Strength    and recruit ment pattern with  NIRS and SEMG and actual Performance in squatting . ( this is a ACL rehab case
 So look out for the isometric study and the  incredible interesting inside view in how the  oxygenation  takes place ( better deoxygenation first and than reoxygenation. Hope  This helps
  Remember . we have cases  but we  need caseloads. so we need to be able to repeat this in the next 20 - 50 athletes we test to understand at least the trend and than come the  next step to understand the actual  reasoning behind this observation.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #14 
Here  just a visual  information, hwo we  test for the moment different  interval options.  This are three different ideas.
 1. Sufficient  rest
2. Insufficient rest  and three   super compensation rest.
. The interesting  part here now is to see, what changes may occur when using one or the other of this physiological guided interval options.
 In the past when  did  5   finger , 400 m( one loop&nbsp runs and 1 min recovery we had this set up out of more organizational reason  without any real physiological  reasoning . It was easy , no finger left workout was over.  1 loop gone  distance was covered. I  loop on the watch and time was ready to go again.
 Great to organize  and easy to  write down but very little physiological information whether this would make sense.
  Now the  physiological ideas make physiological sense. What is missing is the understanding on the different physiological reactions. Advantage now. If we get a change we know exactly  why. If we do not get a change we again know why. In the past if we got a change great ( no clue why in this athlete it was working but we where happy. If with the same interval workout  another athlete  made no progress we still had no clue why as we had no  information how the physiological system where stimulated we only  had physical information on what he did. So  result" we where unhappy  and  had no clue why.
 Most  common explanation . Well you may have reached your genetic potential. Pretty much the same answer we give, when somebody  does not improve  VO2 max.
 VO2 max  = CO x ( a-v) O2 difference.
 Question. How many time when you do a  VO2 max test  anywhere did they tell you how much the CO was and how good the (a-v) O2 difference reacted. ?

 So if your answer is never, than the question would be, How do we know,  why VO2 max does not increase anymore, when we never actually  assess the factors, which influence VO2 max. Cardiac system and  musceloxygenation trends.?
The  seond pic is the vuie of the same interval but looking  at Thb O2Hb and HHb

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #15 
It is long time since we had the  MOXY info with HRV and SEMG protocol from Antonio.
 We did in the mean time since his first post exactly what he suggests we used SEMG as well information from Lactate" to see, what the 50 - 60 % of load really is doing , when we aim for a hypoxic  reaction including some lactate reaction .  We hope to see Antonio's data's  soon so we can compare and see,w here we have similar or very different outcomes.
 Fro HRV we used 2 equipment. Polar as well as BIO harness from Zephyr.
 Fro  NIRS we used MOXY and  Portamon. For lactate we used the lactate Pro.
 So I am looking forward to the promised  data's from Antonio's  nice protocol  we go on here a while back.
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