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Ale83

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 #1 
 Ciao
ho appena eseguito un test 5-1-5 indoor Cycling.
Mi sembra che ci sia una chiara limitazione polmonare , in quanto Thb aumenta sia durante intervalli di riposo che durante il carico e Smo 2 continua a diminuire, tipico di uno spostamento della curva di dissociazione della Thb verso destra, data da incapacità del sistema di espellere Co2.
Secondo limitatore vedo scarsa desaturazione, in quanto arrivo solo fino a 51% e il delta max dalla massima risaturazione è del 20%, mi sembra poco.
Voi come lo vedete?
Suggerimenti di esercizi per intervenire su limitatore polmonare e muscolare?
In allegato le 2 foto del test, una con tutti i dati e l'altra con solo evidenziati Thb e Smo2

Grazie delle risposte

 
Attached Files
docx Solo Thb e Smo2.docx (183.06 KB, 11 views)
docx Test 5-1-5.docx (195.74 KB, 11 views)

MoxyPhysiology

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 #2 
Greetings, 

Good work completing your first 5-1-5!

You are spot on with your analysis of the patterns relating to THb. Which indicates a pulmonary limitation. However, as saturation does not go below 51% this indicates a fairly large utilization limitation. Which I would deem the most limiting to your current performance. Therefore, I would focus specific training days more towards improving this limitation first (focus on this for 3-5 weeks) then re-assess and see if what your major limiter is again. Workouts that work well for targeting muscle limitations are HIIT intervals where you desaturate as much as possible followed by complete rest (until SmO2 reaches previous resting values). This could look something like 5-10 sets of 30s all-out 2:30 rest. 

One benefit of using Moxy is that you can tailor your work and rest intervals through autoregulation. This blog post may be useful - http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/case-study-autoregulation-for-sprint-intervals

Please let me know if you have anymore questions. 

Best! 
Ale83

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 #3 
Grazie della risposta esaustiva, ho letto articolo postato ed è veramente chiaro. Mi chiedo solo se sia più vantaggioso impostare intervalli di 30 sec All Out come potenza o meglio tenersi su una potenza più bassa per permettere di utilizzare meglio tutto o2 e quindi desaturare meglio? Penso che se li imposto All Out,il parametro intensità non potrò tenerlo per 5/10 ripetizioni sempre uguale.
Grazie
Ale83

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 #4 
Altra domanda che mi pongo.
Aumento thb durante intervallo di carico può anche essere determinato da occlusione venosa, come si può distinguere tra limite polmonare e occlusione venosa?
MoxyPhysiology

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 #5 
To answer your questions:

1) I would recommend trying to base your workout on SmO2 with the goal of pushing SmO2 as low as possible before full recovery and modulating power output to accommodate that. The stimulus we are aiming for is to drive SmO2 as low as possible so power should be a secondary measure for these workouts. 

2) Thats a great observation, it's very tough to delineate between a pulmonary limitation and venous occlusion by purely looking at THb over one interval. 

A pulmonary limitation is primarily going to be described from the trends seen during a 5-1-5 assessment and include:
a) Decreasing SmO2 throughout working intervals
b)Increasing work and rest THb during higher intensity stages.
c) a delayed SmO2 recovery compared to THb. 

The THb for a venous occlusion is going to decrease at the onset of load, increase throughout the stage, then should return to near baseline after the load is taken away. 

Sometimes both happen simultaneously, in this case it is very challenging if not impossible to distinguish the two. 


Ale83

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 #6 
Ti ringrazio per le risposte chiare ed esaustive.
Io provo a chiederti ancora dei dubbi che ho su argomento.

1- se ci fosse occlusione venosa o arteriosa (non sembra essere il mio caso ora), che tipo di esercizi si possono fare per migliorare?

2- ho studiato da vostro sito che limitazione polmonare si evidenzia tramite aumento thb e diminuzione Smo2, a causa dell'incapacità di eliminare co2 del sistema polmonare. Però tale limitazione dovrebbe anche attivare metaboreflex, che dirotta più thb verso muscoli respiratori in crisi, limitando flusso verso muscoli in azione. Come si possono distinguere i 2 effetti? Entrambi partono da una limitazione del sistema polmonare, ma in un caso vedremo thb scendere (per metaboreflex), nell'altro caso lo vedremo salire per aumento co2 nel corpo.

3- il moxy misura thb totale (emoglobina+mioglobina) nel muscolo e ci da un valore in grammi ogni 100 ml di sangue. Come fa ad aumentare il valore di emoglobina su 100 ml di sangue? Dovrebbe rimanere fisso il rapporto ma aumentare solo il totale di ml di sangue che arrivano nel muscolo che lavora. Dove sbaglio nel ragionamento?

4- può avere un senso lavorare sulla limitazione polmonare con attrezzi che oppongono resistenza solo sulla fase ispiratoria (tipo Power Breathe) o è fondamentale lavorare contro resistenza su inspirazione ed espirazione (tipo con Airofit)?

5- nel caso di limitazione cardiaca prevalente (non il mio ora) un esempio di esercizio possono essere classiche serie del tipo 4x 4 min a 120% FTP, con accortezza di partire più piano e mano a mano aumenentare e portare la FC verso il max, stimolando quindi sia FC Max che gittata sistolica massima?

Ti ringrazio tanto se potrai rispondere alle mie domande. La tecnologia Moxy per noi in Italia è ancora molto nuova e non trovo nessuno con cui confrontarmi. Penso sia il futuro della preparazione atletica e voi in USA siete all'avanguardia su queste tecnologie.

Alessandro
MoxyPhysiology

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 #7 
Alexander these are fabulous questions. I will try to address each bolded below. 

1- if there was venous or arterial occlusion (it doesn't seem to be my case now), what kind of exercises can be done to improve? One good way to increase the intensity at which a venous or arterial occlusion is to strengthen the muscle. Venous occlusions typically occur are 35-45% of maximal contraction and arterial occlusions typically occur at upwards of 75% (of course this is all individual) but since they generally occur as a percentage of strength making the muscle stronger will allow for occlusions to be less likely at the same power output. 


2- I studied from your site that pulmonary limitation is evidenced by thb increase and Smo2 decrease, due to the inability to eliminate co2 from the pulmonary system. However, this limitation should also activate metaboreflex, which directs more THB to respiratory muscles in crisis, limiting flow to muscles in action. How can the 2 effects be distinguished? Both start from a limitation of the pulmonary system, but in one case we will see thb go down (due to metaboreflex), in the other case we will see it go up due to increased co2 in the body. The amount of blood that is shunted from the skeletal muscle to the inspiratory muscles would depend on the extent of the activation of the metaboreflex. Remember that the metaborelfex is also occurring at the working muscle too so which ever one is dominating is most likely going to get more blood. I would think that if the respiratory muscles were demanding a ton of blood, that blood would first be taken from less active muscles before being taken from the prime movers. If The two effects could be distinguished, you would most likely need to monitor THb in a secondary muscle as well as the primary muscles, and would see a shunting of blood (in the form of decreased THb) away from secondary muscles. Which would indicate there isn't enough blood to adequately supply the oxygen demand and this would mean you actually have a cardiac limitation not a pulmonary one even though the breathing muscles are part of the pulmonary system. 

3- moxy measures total thb (hemoglobin + myoglobin) in the muscle and gives us a value in grams per 100 ml of blood. How does it increase the hemoglobin value in 100ml of blood? The ratio should remain fixed but only increase the total ml of blood arriving in the working muscle. Where am I wrong in reasoning? THb should be measured in grams/deciliter which is a concentration, and while hematocrit, or the proportion of of your blood that is made up of red blood cells should not be changing systemically (the ratio should be the same) the concentration of blood to a specific area is very dynamic, as capillaries and other small vessels vasodilate and constrict, similar to your question above. In that case you should see a change in blood concentration underneath the sensor as metabolism changes. 

4- can it make sense to work on lung limitation with tools that offer resistance only on the inspiratory phase (such as Power Breathe) or is it essential to work against resistance on inhalation and exhalation (such as with Airofit)? Depending on the extent of your breathing limitation I think you could still gain benefit just inspiratory resistance. Especially at lower exercise intensities where expiratory muscles aren't very engaged (at low levels you forcefully breathe in and the relaxation/pressure gradient of the lungs allows for expiration to occur) however, at high intensities where maximal gas exchange is necessary, having strong expiratory muscles will allow for faster inhalation and exhalation so in this case you could get benefits from both resistance in and out. 

5- in the case of prevailing cardiac limitation (not mine now) an example of exercise can be classic series of the type 4x 4 min at 120% FTP, with care to start more slowly and gradually increase and bring the HR towards the max , thus stimulating both HR Max and maximum systolic output? Yes exactly! 

Ale83

Development Team Member
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 #8 
Ciao
Ti ringrazio ancora per le risposte precise. Per me che vivo in Italia è un sogno parlare con un esperto come te di questi argomenti, ancora sconosciuti nella preparazione atletica in Italia.
Quindi provo ancora porti 2 domande.

1- in caso di occlusione venosa, quindi,reputi corretto impostare un lavoro con sovraccarichi in palestra del tipo classico 4 x 5/8 ripetizioni in leg press /squat con recuperi completi? Andando ad aumenatre la forza massima della gamba?

2- per tua esperienza, occlusione venosa si verifica maggiormente sotto CP o anche sopra CP o anche a intensità Vo2 Max?

3-per distinguere bene limite polmonare da cardiaco, diventa fondamentale avere secondo sensore su muscolo non impegnato (tipo deltoide) : se thb aumenta nel muscolo che lavora e diminuisce nel deltoide, probabile sia dominante la limitazione cardiaca (attivazione metaboreflex e vasocoatrizione dove non lavora).
Se thb aumenta nel muscolo che lavora e non diminuisce o aumenta anche nel muscolo che non lavora, sarà limite polmonare prevalente, perché Co2 vasodilata tutto il corpo. È corretto?

4- quando alleni il sistema respiratorio, preferisci farlo come allenamento della forza (poche ripetizioni, resistenza alta) o come resistenza (resitenza bassa, molte ripetizioni)? Come nunero di serie e ripetizioni del sistema respiratorio che schema segui? Simile al resto dei muscoli allenati con i sovraccarichi?

5-per aumentare impatto su Vo2 max e quindi su gittata sistolica/estrazione o2, ha senso impostare una ripetuta di vo2 max da 4 minuti (esempio), partendo con i primi 15/30 secondi molto forte (x elevare da subito vo2 e quindi eatrazione o2), per poi mantenere una potenza intorno al 110% di CP?

Ti ringrazio ancora e ti posto sotto mio allenamento con 10 x 30 secondi all out in massimalo carico e scarico di o2
MoxyPhysiology

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 #9 

1- in case of venous occlusion, therefore, do you consider it correct to set up a workout with overloads in the gym of the classic type 4 x 5/8 repetitions in leg press / squat with complete recoveries? Going to increase the maximum leg strength? Yes that is exactly how I would approach this. I prefer doing squats though as they are close chain movements and require more stability and body awareness.

 

2- in your experience, does venous occlusion occur more under CP or even above CP or even at Vo2 Max intensity? Venous occlusion will most likely start under CP and transition to an arterial occlusion closer to VO2max intensity/failure. Typically, we see venous occlusion occurring from 30-70% of an athletes 1RM strength.

 

3-to clearly distinguish the pulmonary limit from cardiac, it becomes essential to have a second sensor on a non-engaged muscle (deltoid type): if thb increases in the working muscle and decreases in the deltoid, cardiac limitation is likely dominant (metaboreflex activation and vasoconstriction where it does not work ). Yes

 

If thb increases in the working muscle and does not decrease or also increases in the not working muscle, it will be the prevailing pulmonary limit, because Co2 vasodilates the whole body. It's correct? Yes, although it is not 100% necessary to have a second moxy to determine a pulmonary vs cardiac limitation it is indeed very helpful. Remember that both limitations based on SmO2 and THb trends exist at the same time, we are interested in  determining which one is dominant.

 

4- when you train the respiratory system, do you prefer to do it as strength training (few repetitions, high resistance) or as resistance (low resistance, many repetitions)? As a set and reps of the respiratory system, what pattern do you follow? Similar to the rest of the muscles trained with overloads? I would follow similar procedures that you would to strengthen any muscle. 4 x 5-8 reps high resistance full rest, all the way to 4 x 20-30 low resistance, low rest (make sure to not hyperventilate! As you might pass out). Of course these should be periodized throughout the year to gain maximum benefit. This might be a good blog post to check out - http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/how-to-train-an-athletes-limiter

 

5-to increase the impact on Vo2 max and therefore on systolic output / o2 extraction, it makes sense to set a 4-minute repetition of vo2 max (example), starting with the first 15/30 seconds very strong (x raise vo2 immediately and therefore attraction o2), to then maintain a power of around 110% CP? In a cardiac limited athlete, it might be better to use the opposite approach. Slowly increase intensity in order to raise cardiac output as high as possible while keeping skeletal muscle saturation as high as possible (if you desaturate too fast, you might reach failure because of the muscle, not the hearts ability to pump adequate blood).

 

Thanks again and I place you under my training with 10 x 30 seconds all out in maximum loading and unloading of o2 – Perfect! Let me know how it goes.

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