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liversedge

Development Team Member
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Posts: 15
 #1 
I thought it would be interesting to start a thread focusing on some practical applications of the Moxy.

1. Guiding Power Based Interval Workouts

By which I mean, using muscle oxygen saturation to guide the duration of interval and interval recovery during a workout.
When using a power meter we typically stop interval sessions when the athlete can no longer perform 90% of the target wattage. It would be much better to limit the on/off for an interval session by looking at the muscle oxygenation levels; keep the on going until the %age is say < 20%, and keep the off period until the %age recovers to a baseline. We should probably take the baseline from after a warmup.

2. Using Muscle Oxygenation to set target zones for Interval Workouts

This is one step further than the above. Using SM02 %age zones as targets for an interval. e.g. 5 mins at 30% SMO2, then recover to baseline, then 8 mins at 50% etc etc.

3. Identify the Muscle Oxygenation thresholds during a Ramp Protocol

Using a power based ramp protocol we can identify the threshold points that align to MLSS / CP et al by looking at the HHb/O2Hb profile. This is a good protocol for identifying the threshold zone that SSTers can target and POLers can avoid [wink]

4. BikeFit validation

Typically during a bikefit or aero testing in the tunnel / aerolab the incremental changes to position are measured in CdA and also power. I.e. look for a tradeoff between power and CdA for different bike positions; since often being aero can compromise power and biomechanics. We could also use Moxy to look at the physiological cost of each change; answering the question of how sustainable a position is. If you can still hit 300w in a super low profile but SMO2 races to 20% after 5 minutes you know its not going to be sustainable / you need to work towards this position with training.

5. Comparing intervals / tests

When out on the road riding the same climbs or performing the same field tests you often get results that can look quite different when you look at power only. Comparing average O2 data will tell you how much harder it was. Now that might be something RPE can do today, but for things like an FTP test the RPE is generally the same day to day.
When riding the same climbs with different setups, cadence etc the O2 data should help to show which was the most efficient approach, a bit like the BikeFit validation above.

Hopefully, some folks here have others to add to this list ? 

Cheers,
Mark

Ruud_G

Development Team Member
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Posts: 279
 #2 
Hear, hear. And also to try and start sharing some protocols people actually use. With more and more people using it, more and more experiences can be shared
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
That is great  and it shows   that people use the forum  and look at what we  propose  so great  and  who ever can get it going  thanks  for using  our crazy ideas It is  now  close to 15 years  and it is  so nice to see summarize  and ideas   finally find users.

So short add on and repeats to the  summaries  from  the first post.

1. Guiding Power Based Interval Workouts. 
 You can use power based  workouts  but you may defeat the purpose of physiological guided  workouts.
In other sports  than biking  the  interval is much more physiologically guided  and this is used  sine a long time. We used   NIRS guided  workouts in cycling since a while successfully   from average  cyclist in the camps  to Tour  de France   athletes.
 If you use  wattage    do not  expect a certain MOXY   number  as you may still be confused.
 When guiding loads  and or recovery the idea is to guide  by stimulation you plan to set on the body rather  than the wattage you   use. Therefor  you can plan the outcome. If you use  Watt you may have on different days  very different duration's of load  but as well on recovery by the same wattage    workout. Just  think  why.?.
 Now you  have an additional feature  when you use  fixed wattage. You can change the duration  and stimulation by adding Compensator  and limiter into the equation.
 You for example can try  by the same wattage  to desaturate more than usual  or you can try  to  actually  create  higher SmO2  by making O2  bio availability  much harder, ( shifting O2  diss curve  to the left ). In fact  if you did yesterday a  muscular overload  on your bike  and today you plan to do a "interval"  with  low SmO2  you can do that  and instead of pushing 350 watt you normally would have to push  you can do  the same stimulation  for desaturation by  using 150 watt for example  so  going to the ARI  and  stress  enzymatic in the HEI  zone. So  far off the watt  levels but in target of physiological stimulation.


2. Using Muscle Oxygenation to set target zones for Interval Workouts
This is one step further than the above. Using SM02 %age zones as targets for an interval. e.g. 5 mins at 30% SMO2, then recover to baseline, then 8 mins at 50% etc etc.


Is it a step further or is it  just an interesting thought. Can you show us an example  of this. The theory is  great the piratical application   can be tricky . Why? . Think  compensator  and limiter. You can do it on  SmO2  numbers. but are you sure it is the same physiological load ? or is it just the same   SmO2  %?

3. Identify the Muscle Oxygenation thresholds during a Ramp
Protocol

Hmmm  15 years  of  explanations lost.
 Yes you can do a Ramp test  ( depends on the ramp duration.
 Yes you can find some  areas  ( not always  where you may see some thing we  could call deflection or threshold  so we do not have to give up our  old believes  and  can " defend " some  ideas.
 But O2Hb plus HHb  are  the tHb result. So  you  may need something more. Plus yes now you have  a threshold  which in fact may be  close to MAX LASS depending how you  try to find MAX lass  and you can't use the lactate levels  of MAX lass  you may have to take the actual performance. But that is not even the point. We  simply  replace a threshold  form what ever  school, I am coming  VT  . AT ANT ,, LT  now  with a new threshold  ( muscle oxygenation  threshold  or  for  people  write another book  muscle deoxygenation threshold.
 Now  we have  again one point in a  big physiological information  and  what now. Is this new Threshold now  100 %  and the wattage  at this threshold is  100 %  and now  we can go back and use  65 %- 71 %  of  MOXY threshold suppose to   do  ???? Can you show  some ramp ideas  with HHb  and O2Hb  and we  can carefully look at them. When you sent them on here please  add csv  files  so  we  can have some great discussions  on this as well. Plus  add if possible  HR  RF  and if you  do some  assessment to show the "threshold please add the cardiac   information  and VO2 information so we  can show , that many of the thresholds  are actually  perhaps  not  the thresholds  we may look at . Same problem    when we use VT = AT  + LT. Or we use RER = RQ  or we  use  FTP +  max lass.
 I am sue you guys must have hundreds  of FTP  assessments  with  taken lactate very 5  minutes  to see the trend  of both  wattage  and lactate  and HR  and potential  CO  and VE before the statement  could be made  FTP  +  lactate threshold  or MAX lass. VE  Will be great to  see this great studies  on here  for  cyclist  at least.


 BikeFit validation

Absolutely  and welcome great to see this  as an option . We call it  Physiological  bike fitting  and started this in the late 1990  for athletes in Duathlon. Using VO2  equipment   later added Physio flow  and Portamon  to it including   blood assessment.
 San Millan  made once a  presentation on this option  with some base ideas  in that direction.
We  now  have added an additional tool to it . Spinal mouse.  This allows  us  to see in different sports the  load  and   motion  in each segment of the spine , which has a direct impact  on respiration on the one  side but as well on  noziceptores in the intervertebral joints  and with it   the muscle   contraction ability over a  certain  time. We  showed this physiological bike fitting idea  many years back  In California  to S. C   but  most likely  ahead of  what   people where ready to try. So as we now have   this in thee discussion there is  no  doubt  we will see this  in North America as well, as    we showed this  with Andri in Europe a  while ago in some Pro cycling teams . Great  move here and yes it is a  fundamental change  , it  simply  has to come from within the cycling community as  than it  will be accepted . We needed  a bible  and  than  it works . Smile We  had a  workshop in Boulder  awhile back  with  great coaches  Like  J. T  and more  and I think they   may in fact   start to  use the ideas we showed more and more.  Keep the mails coming in  and I will try to keep  an open dialogue, Nice would be  if  like now  with this   feedback we  get some feedback   as well on here. 

  5. Comparing intervals / tests
Now that is  an interesting topic. I like to add some careful  thoughts  if you plan to do that.
 Physiological reactions  are based  on  physiological adaptations.
 So a  change in MOXY information  has to be looked upon the  reactions and results  which may have been cause d  form the previous  workout. So a  perhaps  " negative " result may be very positive  as it is a feedback that in fact you overloaded a  specific system you may have a]targeted  and now you have the feedback  and confirmation in your  workout the next day.
 Example. You did yesterday a specific  we respiratory overload workout. So today you d go up this  mountains  you use regular  for assessments  and you see a much lower Smo2 than you usually would see, even if going all out. Now  you know  why. So  this is  a great   application but as well most likely  at the beginning a very confusing one.
 See that  many post  we have  on here and many years back on the fact forum on this specific   ideas of comparing day by day  workouts. Yes this is what has to be  done so you can  as you  warm up  decide, that today a  interval up the hill with mainly venous occlusion loads  may not be  a great  ideas  due to the " fatigue " you created yesterday in the  respiratory target  workout. So you see this  and you can change the  goal of the workout  due to physiological feed backs.

Summary
  Woow thanks  for this great   feedback and super great clear  and straight forward  summary. I would take me    many pages  to make it  so nice  and clear  and you got a summary off many many  pages  we have on here. Thanks so much.



Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 

Ruud ,   yes I owe  you some emails    and they will come  hopefully this week on your great  case study in the VL  and I like to share some more insight into that.
 BUT  BUT. Ruud  is  and  still is the guys, who keeps  me honest  and ask  together with  many other daily   for  feedbacks . I hope  I can  give as much as possible , sometime great ideas sometimes crazy ideas  sometimes  wrong directions  but this is how practical   science  really works   sharing  form experience  and mixing it  with what we  can test. Ruud  thanks so much  and hello to Europe. We will over the next  few month share   many   interesting areas  we  are involved with MOXY  and how we all learn from coaches  and how we all  run  often against   limits  just to r try new  and find together some great potential  out of a  super  e  smart tool. NIRS / MOXY. Not  magic  just cool , not perfect but great, not the gospel  but worth while to review  our own religion.  Our biggest enemy is in us    our,  my ego  and  this   will hold back many great   chances  for progress.
 It is in all of us including me  and sometimes  we have problems to share ideas  as  we  stand in our own way  of progress. 

It is not the goal to be the best  , it is   much more important  to be better. To be the best you have to eliminate the rest . To be better you need all of us.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Here  for  some newer reader's  from 2012  High Intensity Interval Training  and I will try to find   some more on this topics  from the fact forum as we  covered  this idea  many years back when we  started to use Portamon.  Need some time to find this as  I am very messy .  sorry.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
Answers  to  some mails:
 Spinal mouse assessment. Yes it is non-invasive  and makes a mapping  of your individual  vertebral positions. Here  an example of  an assessment  before   and after a respiratory  workout.
graph and numbers yama.jpg 
 Courtesy  of  Andrea  from  Beautiful Ticino  Grazia  tutti look the  changes  and what segments show differences.
  And here  a  high intensity interval workout  from  many years back  from a  world  class tour  cyclist.

Juerg  3  R.H.intervall.jpg 



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