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bcoddens

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 #1 
Hi All,

I did 10 hill repeats on a local hill here in loops.
The curious thing is that when I did the recovery loop, when I coasted and my legs were not moving the sm02 went up until 81% during the intervals.  Can someone explain this ?

You can find the csv attached as a reference.

Here you can the Sm02 plot by golden cheetah:

Screen Shot 2016-09-12 at 21.08.56.png 
I pressed the lap button after the recovery loop and just before the start of the hill.  Here you can see the full plot with W' bal:

Yellow is power
Red is W' bal
Grey is Sm02

Screen Shot 2016-09-12 at 21.10.40.png 
Kind Regards,
Bart

 
Attached Files
csv hillrepeats.csv (258.99 KB, 7 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #2 
Bart  thanks  so much I was waiting  for this  since a long  time  to come  from some other place  than  me. Can you  for teh  readers  explain  what W  bal is  and what it stands  for as the majority of  readers  are  not  form Cycling.
 What  does  a   a high W  bal mean and
what   does a low  W  bal  mean. Now  once  you have  the information on W  bal  look the  connection or lack  of it   with SmO2  and W  Bal. Remember  that  some use  SmO2  as  a indirect  feedback on   Cr.P   refueling.


The curious thing is that when I did the recovery loop, when I coasted and my legs were not moving the sm02 went up until 81% ????

And  what  did W  Bal ?
CraigMahony

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 #3 
Would this increase in SmO2 not be the same as the increase in SmO2 we usually see in a 5-1-5 test during the minute recovery. I would think it was just that the CO was high but O2 use low therefore SMO2 increases.
juergfeldmann

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 #4 
Craig  absolutely  but let s wait  for the cycling community. There is  an interesting connection  and really nothing again  new   it  is used  since a long time  Scherrer  et all  I   think around  1965 if  I recall. just some modification and different  named.
 Look careful the   wattage   reaction in the load  and the  SmO2  reaction therefore   in  lap 4  or  5. Look the  calculated W  Bal . What  can we  say ? So back to the  question people  may ask   a  high W  bal high red  line means ??
 a low  Red line  means ?
 So  what  do we see   as  more  hill repeats  he did  with  red line   recovery  lap  and  load  lap. ?  In  top athletes  CrP  recovery is faster  than in  less trained . In trained  athletes SmO2  recovery is faster  than in less trained  see in the forum some  m interesting  information. W  bal reacts   the   same.
 Now in a  great trained athlete  we will see   SmO2  recovery  changing    with  increase in  fatigue  (  what ever  fatigue  means . ) So  the  same  trend    of fast recovery will change during a  workout  and depending again on limiter   and compensate. What limits  the ability  to refuel  ATP  and as  such  Cr.P  and as such Smo2  recovery  and as  such W  bal recovery. An interesting  questions is . W  bal is based on math and performance. SmO2  is based on physiological reaction.  So  when you go into  altitude  or   you go hypoxic or hyperoxic  the  W  bal  has to en adjusted  to the performance under this conditions  . SmO2  will tell you what ah happens.
 So  if  you do a  O2  disscurve shift as  a planned  workout  to the right and  create a hypoxia  hyper capnic  situation on sea level the  W  Bal  will be interesting to follow   in comparison  with SmO2  which is under any conditions what you really see.
 In cycling W  bal is  super interesting  and may show up on cycling computer   earlier  than later. But  what do you do in cross-country skiing , swimming ,   walking  roller blading, or  any  other activity  where you have  not  CP  or  wattage  or  FTP ideas ?
 How  about looking closer into  SmO2  and tHb as we do here and combine both great ideas  together  to optimize  the feedback we  can get. One   calculate d  and one real live  physiological feedback. ?

Ruud_G

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Posts: 279
 #5 
If I see this workout, the power output became progressively less. And minimal deviation in the SmO2 clearly shows the BSX behaviour. W bal can already be put on (selection of) Garmins via Garmin Connect by the way, including calculations on time to exhaustion
bcoddens

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Posts: 26
 #6 
Hi all,

In this video , W' CP and W' bal are explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=86Sw3vOCq9U

That the power output gets less during the intervals is quite normal, people get tired when doing hill repeats [smile]

Bart
Ruud_G

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 #7 
It depends on the intensity
juergfeldmann

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 #8 
Bart  a  few  questions.
 1. That the power output gets less during the intervals is quite normal, people get tired when doing hill repeats [smile]

 If  W  bal is  higher  like in the recovery  what  does  that mean ?
 So  if we  get more tired  in  what direction W  bal   will  move : in simple terms  or terms  of recovered  to avid  anaerobic  information. 

Up   emans  more or  less tired 
or  down   means  more  or less  tired .

2. The SmO2  as  Ruud   explained  has a  relative low  amplitude  which is absolutely possible  if there are some problems  with  deoxygenation.
  In this case it is very little deoxygenation  for  the power   you   produced.
 Simple  question. Did  you used a MOXY  or a Portamon  ? or  any other  NIRS  device?
bcoddens

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Posts: 26
 #9 
Hi Joerg,

W' balance is closely related to work above threshold, where threshold is Critical Power.  The more you exercise above your threshold the more your W' balance goes down.  When you exercise below threshold your W' balance goes up again.  Once you are fully recovered the W' balance goes back to 100%

Here you can see an image with only the W' balance plotted:

Screen Shot 2016-09-13 at 18.40.03.png 
Remark I pressed the interval button almost every time right at the start of the load lap.  So you can clearly see that the W' balance goes down during the load lap and goes up during the recovery lap.

I did this exercise with the BSX insight and a Wahoo Elemnt.  I think that this device samples every second, am I right ?

Best Regards,
Bart


ryinc

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Posts: 369
 #10 
Juerg a couple of points
- W'bal is a mathematical model. To be useful it needs to be parameterised correctly. You can't criticise the model if not paremeterised correctly, and we have no way of knowing in this case if it was paremterised correctly. (That would be like criticising Moxy because the device is not properly attached and gives bad data)
- Because w'bal is mathematical clearly it is only an estimate and wont work everyday (same as ftp is not the same everday).
- You seem to suggest W'bal and smo2 are the same thing or that w'bal is trying to model smo2 and does a bad job of it. I don't think that is what it is trying to do at all.
- i think overall NIRS and smo2 are far more useful than w'bal but there are some things that i think that w'bal is likely to give a much better estimate than smo2 would or could. For example if i ask the question, on the current load given the current Smo2 trend how long will the cyclist be able to continue? It is not possible with NIRS to give an answer? W'bal could at least provide an estimate here - not perfectly accurate but in the right range.

There are other reasons i think w'bal is very flawed - as just one example you get the same decrease in w'bal if you do 1x 5 min interval above critical power vs doing 1 hour at crtical power and then the same 5 min interval above critical power (anybody who has tried that knows that those 5 min intervals are physiologically very different and NIRS would confirm that). Having said that i don't think NIRS info needs to be used at the complete expense of W'Bal.
Jiri Dostal

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Posts: 51
 #11 
The problem I have with the CP, W' and Wbal is that the are simplified mathematical formulas assuming absolute maximal values and no physiological manipulation. In case we train the cyclist to manipulate ventilation to increase the buffering capacity of the bicarbonate and Hb we also increase W' and CP. The person can use the manipulation only during selected times ( hills for example), and then he in fact increase all his performance. So the whole control of the climb based on CP can be flawed.

The same applies to W bal.

I am not against the power based training. I just want to make sure, people understand what are they doing :-)
 
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