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xcskier

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Posts: 46
 #1 
[Changes: addressing comments by Juerg and ryinc]

It would be good to get some guidance about where to 
put NIRS sensors for different sports for priority muscle and
for non-priority muscle. For some sports (rowing, x-c skiing,
climbing) non-priority is especially tricky since most of the body 
is involved.

Sport                   | Priority | Non-priority
-----------------------------------------------
running                | LV        | deltoid
cycling (sitting)     | RF / LV | deltoid
cycling (standing)  | RF / LV | ?????
rowing                  | LV        | ????
x-c skiing              | LV        | ????
climbing                |            |
swimming             |             |
-------------------------------------------------

juergfeldmann

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 #2 
Just a  short reminder  when  people  work on this. Try to use   priority  and non priority muscle  to  avoid  the  discussion we had a  while back as at any motion all muscles  are somewhat involved.  
Takura

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 #3 
Pls add "cycling (standing)" separately from "cycling (sitting)" to that list ... deltoid seems too involved ...
ryinc

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 #4 
Note for cycling i think Rectus Femoris (RF) often gives better information than VL, particularly for well trained cyclists.
juergfeldmann

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 #5 
here is  a nice  info   from
 https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-primary-muscles-used-for-cycling-and-how-to-train-them/

So you look  at the   muscle activation and  than you  have a  good  information on where to  set up SEMG  reading and NIRS  equipment.

cycling.jpg

Takura

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 #6 
Have started using pectoralia major instead of deltoid as the less involved, non priority muscle during cycling, as - at least for me - it is less affected by handle bar (and hands-free) position changes. That said, the rate of desaturation under load is slower as well (which might have other benefits or issues), and I haven’t checked yet whether the less-noise is really advantageous relative to the size of “meaningful” changes.

Wondering if anyone else has tried the pectoralis major and would have some thoughts on this?
xcskier

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Posts: 46
 #7 
In the muscle O2 training blog
http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/p/index.html
intercostal muscle is suggested (and explained in great
detail).

I tried it with Moxy for cross-country skiing, but I didn't get 
good results. It could be that I haven't used the right location,
but my Moxy has been fussy as well.


bjrmd

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 #8 
The concept of "uninvolved" muscle is somewhat misleading.  When you are biking up an incline at full tilt, your upper body is certainly using resources.  My "conjecture" is that looking at the result of cardiac output redistribution under locomotor muscle load, may provide real time physiologic insight into how best to race pace without premature decompensation.  The costal area, being an involved muscle in breathing (especially at high intensity) may be an even better index, since sustained hypoxia would presumably harm the respiratory function (and therefore reduce gas exchange efficiency).

But, this is not proven (what else is new).

More importantly, it is tricky to get the sensor placement just right.  I use a BSX and some micro adjustment of a few mm can make a difference.  This could be related to the irregular surface of the rib cage, so an air gap will cause poor readings.  The shape of the moxy could be more problematic.  
Studies have been done on the accessory muscles in the neck as well but this is not going to work in the field.

On a practical basis, once you get this to work, it seems like a potentially valuable parameter to follow as you are riding hard, as well as recovering.
xcskier

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Posts: 46
 #9 

> The concept of "uninvolved" muscle is somewhat misleading.

Indeed. In cross-country skiing the entire upper body and the core 
are engaged.

it is tricky to get the sensor placement just right

I fiddled with placement of Moxy and it proved very difficult due
to the sensor's shape. It's not clear how to verify the placement.
bjrmd

Development Team Member
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Posts: 43
 #10 
Yes it may be simple physical shape:
[IMG_1253_thumb] 
Vs:

[MoxyBSX_thumb] 

I was not able to make it work at all (BSX) until I began using Skins Dynamic tops, with a layer of flexible Coban type wrap on top of the sensor but below the Skins. 

For me at least an O2 50-60% is normal baseline, if I see it's higher, I know the contact is off.
bjrmd

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 #11 
Some preliminary tests show that the area just lateral to the nipple on the anterior chest may give similar data/readings as a costal/rib placement.  This location should be readable with the Moxy if anyone would like to try it.

This is not a non involved muscle per se, it's just not involved with leg propulsion.  You should see significant change as the respiratory muscles start competing with the locomotor system.
Takura

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 #12 
Great! (And sorry for not having replied to your reply to my comment on your January post. Seems I somehow missed noticing that.)
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