Sign up Latest Topics

  Author   Comment  
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
I like to spend some time on this 2 great MOXY data collection over the next few days.
It is again a typical way on how   most of us would use MOXY , when confronted  with.
 Fix it on the muscle you like to  assess, go out and make a  common   workout  you  do  possible of an d on, so your  feeling  and experience  will be combined with a MOXY trend.
 The  interesting part with this is, that we all have  some  ideas  on what we  suppose to see  and  we may not see, what we where  hoping to see or where looking for.
 Back to the old Greeks.
 Aristotle's  and theory  and fact,
Greek materialism. Is what we see real  or what we not  see real. unseen real  and unreal seen.
 One  common  challenge we face is the fact , that  may  data collections we used  or still use   are indirect information's.
 So the body feeling may not fit the  actual  information  but we got used  to this lag time. Now we  may have an information who tells us what is going on , but the  " body feeling " does not yet agree with the  data's.
 We  really have just 3   markers  today  we can use  and some have some   lag time.
 Watt  on a bike  as a direct performance info. In many other sports  that is not available.
 HR  as a relative   fast direct info, but as well  with a lag time  so not that optimal  as well as HR  is only one   part of the cardiac feedback ( SV. LVET. CCT , HRV are others , who can influence  HR)
 Optimal would be  as a  relative direct info  as well RF  (  again influenced  by TV plus  location ) and not yet optimal available but possible..
  This leaves us  with MOXY as a very direct  information on the metabolic  demand or reactions in a  specific  boy part. Remember it is one body part like left leg  so as well we have to be critical upon  conclusions  just form  one single  trend or direction.
 The   most common question.
  What happens if I mount it on an other muscles.
 A. Trend is the same but may be less clear  if it is not a main contributor to the activity you may do.
 Placement  : Try to stay  as  good as possible  at the same sport on your muscle day in day out  once you start using it for  training intensity control.
 So here   what we look at .
 1. Pic  1  and 2  are the 2 workouts.
 I add a word document  so you can use it as a worksheet , once we discuss the different   questions  and possible answers.
 Here the   context  to read on the forum.

Overall view of 2 workouts to get used to MOXY.

1. SmO2 view over the full workout


 Like with any other  “activity
“ testing equipment , we have to think on  what do we look for  and  is there an absolute value  we like to see or is there rather and individual value  we may see.

 Look at other equipment we use for Intensity controls.

 a) Wattage: what is a “normal “wattage for my age? 

b) What is a “normal” HR for my age??

c) What is a normal RPM and so on?

 What would you give as an answer to these questions?

 Depending on the answer you may already have a great idea, what the limitations are but as well what the big advantages are, when using a MOXY???

 So over the next few days we will look at 2  incredible nice data collections  and you will very fast see, that this  new MOXY user  had some clear  vision an ideas on how to approach  the use of MOXY  to get a feel of it.

 I will show you how we look at the information and what we can observe and what we can speculate on this workouts.

 Now keep in mind, that in many other equipment cases you may do an assessment to get some ideas on what and how you may be able to use    from the info gathered.

Again an example:

  You have a lactate analyzer and you would do any of the 2 examples I show you. Every so and so often you would take a sample. What could you make   with these readings?

 Or you would have a VO2 portable mask on your face. (Possibly not that much fun) and you would see live on your wrist or on your   bike computer the VO2 values as you bike?

 What would you do with it?









I like to split the workouts in 3 parts (Yellow, red lines) what is interesting, that there was a kind of a pattern in his workouts. Planned???

Yellow 0 -1200


 1. Start Smo2

2. Maximal tested SmO2 in this section.

 3. What may, if there is a difference have caused the difference in start or max tested SmO2.

4. What are the lowest SmO2 we see in this section?

 5. What caused a low SmO2 and what does this number indicate.  Which workout in this section was possibly less intense?

6. Is that always the case?  Is a harder workout always showing   a ....... SmO2?

  If not what could have caused a change in the drop (utilization of O2   to a lower level even if the workout was less “ ........ “  ( ...... wattage ) ?

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: work_with_step_smo2.jpg, Views: 19, Size: 66.94 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: work_int_smo2.jpg, Views: 19, Size: 74.94 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Part 2 :  Starts  with the pic  overlap of the 2 workouts The att word  doc   will just always add the next part  for your   use and as your worksheet.


Lets’ overlap the 2 days of workouts


Let’s  focus  still on the  first section. And in this section on the start:


1.If you start to use HRV  (Heart rate Variability ) as a part of a recovery  idea  to understand, whether  you can do a workout or not. What do you have to do with the numbers in the morning so you can use them?

2. If you use the “older” idea on looking at resting heart rate in the morning. What do you consider a “normal” resting HR.  If you are off by 5 – 10 beats   what does that mean: Problem with the HR monitor or   possibly????

3.  If you go to your doctor   because you have some chest pain in the tests your BP  . Is that single test info of any value or could it be in a  strange  range  because of  some  specific  reactions. How would you like to assess your BP before you jump to medication?


Why this silly questions?

 Here not as a critic but as daily mail info I am getting:

  My SmO2 today is much higher than yesterday. What is wrong with the sensor?


Or :

 I  expected  with my client  a much  higher  SmO2   or a much  lower SmO2  in an all out  workout. I think there is something wrong with the MOXY.



My mail back is than often (and not always well accepted) a question back:

 b) How many NIRS assessment or workouts did you do till today   ?

a) What do you consider “normal” on that   muscle.   Now how about collecting some additional questions and or answers and or comments to what we discussed so far.

 Look in this case   at the start what do you see? Than look how this two workouts differ and why do we have perhaps in one a higher   SmO2   than in the other. Look at what certain loads create as a reaction immediately after the load.

 Think how this could be created. Think:

 Blood volume (compression relaxation due to muscle contraction)

 Think respiration   as hyper or hypo capnic reaction,

 Think   cardiac preload due to blood return so changes in SV and EF % and LVET.


 Think in the short term during the workout  and think in the longer term    overload of one or the other system  yesterday  and the  reaction  today in this “ fatigued  “ stage.




Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: smo2_1_2.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 80.34 KB 

Attached Files
docx P_explanations_and_thoughts.docx (155.31 KB, 13 views)

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530

Part 3.

If you look between “green” workout and “red “workout you can see.  That the “extremes’

  Highest SmO 2 and lowest SmO2 in the red is   more.

 This can indicate, that in the red workout   P.  May have pushed harder as a performance so wattage if it is on a bike where higher   in the deoxygenating stages 

 But as well it could be, that the delivery systems   where in different stages “recovered or fatigued   between red and green.

 That’s why   performance additionally to SmO 2 is very nice as helpful information. But as well we could use HR and RF and combine all of them.

 So in  just looking  at SmO2 in this case we  can  have an additional hint, whether it is “ fatigue “ of one or the other delivery system ( cardiac   or respiration or  muscle  strength )

  Now here the   observation we see.

  If it is a “fatigue of   delivery, that we do not see an overshoot like we see here on red.

 This  would  push us rather to the  conclusion   by looking just  at SmO2  that in this  case red  was the  higher  performance  workout  with   harder  pushes  to reload than green.

 The beauty in this 2  test is, that  the  resting SmO2  is pretty much equal  so we  can assume he started in a  close to the same  oxygenation resting stage.

  Here a hint what we doo.

 We always use a 1 min “calibration “time before we start a workout or an assessment. So we have a   start HR, start SmO2 and start RF   at   actual rest.

 The 1 min is in the sport specific position.

 So   sitting on a bike in testing position or standing on a tread mill and so on.

. Now if we look at the trend red to green.

 Red has much more  “ extreme    intervals  creating  therefore  a much  stronger    after load reaction with SmO2  over shoot  compared  to green. Open Question:

 Is that overshoot good or “bad “

  Some people would name it “ super compensation”     well we name it for the moment  an observation of  an overshoot  above start SmO2  vale  due to a  hard  or very hard   pre phase of deoxygenating. We will show later   what different reactions after a hard to all out workload we can see in the after load reactions. Here just to start some visuals.  Form Ice hockey players.

Three  all out   in a closer  look  30 sec  all out  look at  green  trend of deoxygenating and how long they where able to use O2   as a part of the energy supply in a so called “ anaerobic”  load

  Now here one very close look of one of the loads .Try to explain yourself, what that could mean.  Black line is the end of the load (load is subjectively all out load on the ice.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: biased.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 82.32 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: colour_4_stages.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 48.22 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530

Part 4
Do see the pics on part 4  look at the total word document  as they are too many for  here.

Now we see that in both workouts the SmO2 values increase as a sign of a better oxygenation than compared to the start.  Now  remember:  The  SmO2  value  does NOT tell us how much blood or Hb  we have, it tells us  how “good’  the Hb  we have, whatever it    is  better or  not as good loaded  with O2.

 Look at the discussion in the Forum   with the   Hb as a blood test for  the amount of Hb   versus the  % of loaded Hb   as a % of  what is there.. A higher SmO2 value means than more Hb are loaded    of the total Hb. It is important to understand, that this is not good nor is it bad. It is what it is. The question  rather is, whether the O2  we have loaded  can be used   for activities  or  on the other side the HB  which is not loaded  can be  loaded in a decent time   of  rest.

Remember the word I use BIO AVAILABILITY.

 This can create the strange situation, that you may see a very high SmO2   but still go hypoxic  (  resp  in the old terms  you  may see a high SmO2   but   as well an increase in lactate as a sign of  metabolic  demand  of  O2 independent  energy sources.. On the other side  you may see a  low SmO2  value  but no lactate in the system  as  you  just simply use  O2  what is coming in    and you are in a balance of input  and use  but have no chance  at the intensity  to add   or  reload  at the current moment.

Here 2 example  of a 5/1/5  assessment. Both   have at the end a very high lactate but very different desaturation



Which of the above client has a great bio availability and who not? Now let’s go back to our    start assessment here.


Look at the green thick arch and the red arch. Now below you see some “classical “ 3 min step  and some 5 min step test  and a 5/1/5.  What did this person do during this workout possibly under the red arch?


Yellow here is tHb  and purple is SmO2 ( Hb Diff. )


Green is SmO2 look at the different physiological reactions at the end of the test. Above steep end of SmO2   so great utilization but delivery limitation below Utilization limitation   flat or nearly flat SmO2. Both due to slow start great info on SmO2 increase (more O2 delivered than used short peak and then   delivery problem   with more O2 used than delivered. But in both cases hard to know, where the critical intensity would be, as an ongoing increase very 2  -3 min  does not give the physiological system time enough to try  to  create a homeostasis. If we give   more time like 5 min.  It may look like this here.




5/1/5 means you do on load rest 1 min repeat the same load   and then increase for another 5/1/5 . You see much easier, where the body tried and won and where he tried and “lost “. Then and we will discuss this later is the information you gain in the rest period on how do you recover.  .  Below  I like to show you some “ classical” information   of classical  tests  compared  with our idea  of  5/1/5  or  what we called IPAHD  or now STRIP  ( structured  intensity protocol )  






Here a classical  lactate  test curve look at the same  problem of  where  would something  get into trouble  is  if you do a “ classical’ SmO2  curve.

 It is the Protocol who forces a physiological interpretation ( reaction) instead  the physiological  activity  who creates  the physiological interpretation. The lag time in equipment like lactate  and VO2   is missing the actual  reactions  caused by the activity.




Green SmO2   red lactate same test so same person. Same problem, where is the critical point of a homeostasis disruption??? All speculation which will end  up in any mathematical idea  of  angel tangent  and  amount  of  changes ??? Here  an example of a lag time problem   if we use  lactate


Now think what the lactate values would be   on these different points from our workout like here?  Lactate high or low?


Same would be with VO2.

  Below a 5/1/5 picture. a) Look at lactate trends   in the 5/1/5   and look at VO2  trend



So next up look at  again the  pic.  And see, that there is a hidden step test in this workout.  Let’s give it a closer look.

  Next up  “step test”  during a workout.

 Here  the closer look

  Make the zoning based on this . Remember   SmO2  up    flat and down and in  short steps   down in different degrees.

Attached Files
docx P_explanations_and_thoughts.docx (1.01 MB, 18 views)

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
lets'  go back to P's. great data collection. Here a refresher of a workout   we showed  tHb  and SmO2  Pic  one. You can nicely see, that his body reacts  very   clear   and we can see load  and recovery in the workout . So when he is increasing load he clearly influences   tHb  ( blood volume   but as well he immediately is  using O2  ( SmO2  drop  as a sign of good utilization ability   or  as a sign of a   delivery limitation.
. Now   many  studies  show this as the normal reaction. We are not that sure.
 as we  have hundreds  of examples  and all different reactions. Here an example of a  client  from S.M  who  reacts   from a blood flow  situation the same  but not form a utilization point of  view. see pic 2  and   do just make  a third  option  one  with some what in between  reactions pic 3.
  So you can see  three very different   reactions  and  therefor  three very different physiological  working systems  with different limitation and   compensations.
 By using 5  of  what ever  maximal  or optimal   values we  decide in any " classical' testing we completely  miss this  very individual physiological responses.
. Therefor   the same  %  load  based on intensity zoning  have very different outcomes. Without  the ability to reassess  we have  only a guess=. work in format of us  and no  actually ideas, why  one  client improves nicely and the other not  at all.
 With MOXY as  an additional  info  channel  combined  with    already existing  bio feedback's  we now  have the ability to follow physiological changes.
 It is  at the end the question for delivery  and utilization  and in this    the question:
 Who delivers  and how   and how long  or who limits delivery  and why. What helps to utilize  O2   and   how can it be limited.
 In P's  example we have the great   workout, where he did a step test during a workout.
  You an find the test in his  total overview.
 What you can see is , that we " miss" the Alarm phase in the step test as he " alarmed  the  system in the previous    loads  so he started  with an optimal    blood flow  and SmO2 level   . Never the less we can make  or try to make a simple  " Zoning  idea a  based on his   step test during the workout.
 What we cant' see, as we do not have a 5/1/5  is  how he would  compensate or recover in between loads.  that is the problem  when using    short steps  like we do in classical    test.
 Same problem with lactate  and the  idea  , that we would find something  like  a Threshold. We  do not   NOT look for any comparison  with classical ideas like ANT  LT  VT  and AT  and as you can see a confusion of  "thresholds  " where we  just will get lost in 100 years of discussions. We use MOXY  and observe  individual reactions  and work  with this individual feedback's.
 Here  the  " zoning  " try out  for P.

pic with lactate and 5/1/5   and you can see  how  time changes  trend  versus a classical 3 min step test.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: thb_smo2_with_step.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 71.03 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: Dani_thb_smo_colour.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 44.68 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: thb_smo2_rick.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 58.07 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: Zoning_colour.jpg, Views: 16, Size: 56.19 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: lac_and_SmO2.jpg, Views: 16, Size: 64.45 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: EH_VENT.png, Views: 14, Size: 71.46 KB 

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter -