Stuart percival
Development Team Member
Registered:1472164807 Posts: 79
Stuart percival
Development Team Member
Registered:1472164807 Posts: 79
Stuart percival
Development Team Member
Registered:1472164807 Posts: 79
Posted 1473800371
#3
Graphs of R and L rec fem for Alan- Male TT rider
Attached Images
CraigMahony
Development Team Member
Registered:1448702174 Posts: 179
Posted 1473809330
· Edited
#4
At a very quick glance, I noticed that for Alan that with his right rec fem in the recovery periods his tHb went down from the second 1 minute recovery period onwards. Whereas with his left leg it went up. This to me indicates a strength issue in his right leg. Although this could also have something to do with the recovery position.
juergfeldmann
Development Team Member
Registered:1380484167 Posts: 1,501
Posted 1473826729
#5
Here a closer look at right and left leg tHb reaction Craig is talking about. Below his r and left leg and D SmO2 to make a more total picture.
CraigMahony
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Registered:1448702174 Posts: 179
Posted 1473832839
· Edited
#6
Not very observant am I. The tHb only rebounded up on one occasion. On all other occasions it dropped during recovery for both legs,=.
CraigMahony
Development Team Member
Registered:1448702174 Posts: 179
Posted 1473845701
#7
Question. Were they wearing compression clothing?
Stuart percival
Development Team Member
Registered:1472164807 Posts: 79
Posted 1473872052
#8
No - I stuck the Moxy on with tape provided. The leg Moxy were underneath cycling bib shorts but more to keep in place and and prevent light. I wasn't concerned of compression
juergfeldmann
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Registered:1380484167 Posts: 1,501
Posted 1473873302
#9
we may be back for more in this case. Here some points. 1 left and right leg dysbalance but which one ( Stuart to not tell feelings as it is fun to have the 2 options and how you find out what it is. 2. Interesting that this athlete never ever was able to increase SmO2 above resting level . 2 main reason to think about why . 3. Interesting tHb reactions in legs ( delta was different ) as we would expect at least on the one side to increase during the 1 min rest. reasons. we get rid of muscular compression due to contradiction but we have an increased CO due to lag time so we expect an increase in tHb. As you can see it did not happen and it starts from the beginning. So BP reaction may be not the reason. So first always look at pedal position. is the leg position 3 and 9 clock so often rest tension left to hold this position in one or the other leg. If in 6 and 12 o clock look how this athletes react with this position in tHb. In some starter case we often do o have a 6 and 12 but often 11 and 5 or a 1 and 7 position so still some muscle tension let in a close isometric way. So y look closer at biased and see, whether the drop in tHb goes with an increase of HHb or a decrease in HHb , Than what would that mean. Than you look whether the tHb reaction is no just in the legs, but as well in the non priority muscle. So the question o a systemic reaction and if that i the case why or what can produce this or whether it is a local one side leg reaction so more a positional question. We can overlap all three athletes from Stuart and see how that may look in all cases and how different it may or may not be .
ryinc
Development Team Member
Registered:1440858706 Posts: 360
Posted 1473881091
#10
I am starting with Sharon case: GeneralSomething seems strange on the 1st step at the 3rd load - the load seems shorter and the recovery longer - what happened here? Sm02 reactions:In general priority muscles are not showing much desaturation - almost looks as though it could be a normal step test rather than a 5-1-5. Unexpectedly the deltoid is actually the muscle showing the most desaturation, and it shows it on rest. Was there perhaps something going on (e.g. a shift in position during recovery periods?) Lack of desaturation might be due to the muscle chosen - in general my preference is to use RF for well trained cyclists but in this case VL muscle might show more insightful information? tHbSimilar reactions across all three muscles, except in load where the left RF rebounds more significantly - this most likely simply because left leg in 6 o clock position on rest? In general tHb trends upwards during loads, however the reactions on recovery do not look like venous occlusion. The trend seems to follow HR quite closely so probably just CO overcoming muscle tension. There is a suggestion of overshoots of tHb on recovery in the later loads, probably due to C02 build up (particularly looking at deltoid). Heart rateStrange heart rate reactions on recovery at end of 1st load at 2nd step and last step? Why did heart rate increase for a while on recovery? On first load of 2nd step, heart rate increases steadily but on the next load at the same step heart rate flat - is this indicative of stroke volume to rise? Quite a low heart rate overall Heart rate recoveries hardly ever get down to the same level
ryinc
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Registered:1440858706 Posts: 360
Posted 1473881138
#11
bobbyjobling
Development Team Member
Registered:1454439119 Posts: 213
Posted 1473885330
#12
Good points Ryinc. The inconsitent THb & HR patterns you mentioned could be due to the equipment used; was the test automated using an ERG turbo trainer or manual setup for each step to aid lactate sampling?
I think the reason for HR increasing during the rest period of the last step test might be because she started the next step and stoped.
SmO2 saturation might be due to moxy IR sensor distance to muscle. I too think VL would have been a better choice.
Stuart percival
Development Team Member
Registered:1472164807 Posts: 79
Posted 1473885936
#13
Hi Ryan Thanks for the input. Some important points- As far as I am aware 1st step was 5 min? We had an issue mid test whereby I hit a button on the CPET machine and the protocol got deleted- Problem with this is the ergometer was connected to the machine so we lost power- I was frantically trying to manually get the power back to the level- This affected the middle part of test for sure and was disappointing. Sm02-reactions- I discussed this with Juerg as I was concerned during the test we were not desaturating- Sub cutaneous fat % was probably too high for Moxy? hence why we see deltoid reaction and not leg. I did use RF so maybe VL might be better? i learnt from Juerg to test the Moxy first by actively trying to desaturate pre test to test fat% and Moxy efficacy - A lesson learnt. Can you expend on these 2 points for me pleasehowever the reactions on recovery do not look like venous occlusion There is a suggestion of overshoots of tHb on recovery in the later loads, probably due to C02 build up (particularly looking at deltoid)
ryinc
Development Team Member
Registered:1440858706 Posts: 360
Posted 1473949839
#14
Stuart, first keep in mind I am no expert either, everything here is just what I have learnt (or think I have learnt!) following the forum over a year or two. In other words, don't take anything i say with any level of authority!
I am also going to answer your questions in a way that will hopefully illuminate the thinking process, rather than necessarily provide clear cut answers. This is not intended to be patronising or opaque – please don’t interpret that way if that is how it comes across. I am simply trying to respect the culture Juerg has tried to instill on the forum of each person coming to their own thinking conclusion, and so that the threads serve as a source of a thinking process to future readers too rather than a set of “cookbook” answers (as Juerg would put it).
However, if it still is not clear then ask further questions about what is not clear as this helps to further highlight how people are thinking about this.
However the reactions on recovery do not look like venous occlusion
A venous occlusion would occur when the compression of the muscle due to the load actually blocks outflow of the blood – what would happen if the "exit" for the blood at the muscle is blocked? Next, think about how the mix of oxygenated vs dexoygenated blood might change if the venous outflow is blocked. Now think what trend tHb and Sm02 would show during the load, and then think what would happen on the release of the load when the occlusion is released?
Once you have it clear in your mind – have a look at what we see here on the female athlete, does it look like what you would expect a venous occlusion to look like? Also go have a look at your world’s race file, where Juerg circled certain periods of interest. It was suggested by some that there might be a venous occlusion although there was debate about this, and it has still not been settled yet – but form your own view why or why not could it be a venous occlusion?
Then go have a look at the case studies section, I recently shared a picture of what I thought was a trend of venous occlusions – what are the similarities and/or differences?
Going a step further, if we do see a venous occlusion what might that tell us about the athlete?
There is a suggestion of overshoots of tHb on recovery in the later loads, probably due to C02 build up (particularly looking at deltoid)
The deltoid muscle will be a “non-priority” muscle during cycling activity – so looking at the trends of this muscle will often tell you a lot more about systemic reactions, than “priority” muscles (e.g. the legs) which show the result of reactions taking place at the muscle itself (i.e. local reactions) due to the load as well as broader systemic reactions. Now if you look at the peaks that tHb reaches on recovery of the deltoid muscle in the female athlete and how these change through the assessment? What do you see? Now you need to think what is causing this, on the one hand it could simply be cardiac output has increased on the other it could be vasodilation (i.e. widening of blood vessels). One of the things that stimulates vasodilation is C02? Now why might there be more C02 around at the later loads, and what could this possibly indicate? Cheers Ryan
juergfeldmann
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Registered:1380484167 Posts: 1,501
Posted 1473960429
#15
Ryan, What can I say other than Thank you thank you thank you. This is what I am dreaming of since many years. I is a wonderful present to me, seeing, that the way like to move information is exactly what happens here. Thinking instead of believing. And it worked. And it is in englsih instead in "swenglish " swiss and English and it is great and it makes sense. So this step now help me to move forward to the next phase. Meaning that I will add if needed or if it make sense a some additional thoughts to it but more important I like to get rid of the 5/1/5 protocols it is ugly and will show you here how over time you actual assess as you go ahead. The 5/1/5is a base line a foundation to be able to do physiological assessments in the go and during the assessment or actual training you do one or the other step to see, what is limiting just now and what is compensating just now for the limiter. But first nothing really to add to the section you wrote on occlusion and CO2 reaction. Exactly same thinking here. Same here as well there are NO experts in anything , there are just people who believe they are experts and give their expert opinion with often little values. Same is true for me , No expert but an aging student with limited options to keep learning as we progress and the risk to throw own ideas over board as new information's may show up. So if I add some thoughts does not mean that is the proper answer it is just some thoughts for possible open discussions with often different outcomes than I may see. Example. The three red circles in the RR where we have an increase in tHb. Initial thought s like I think Craig was look at a possible occlusion ( outflow reaction. Ryan pitched in much smarter no occlusion when we look at SmO2 so yes I looed closer HHb and O2Hb and yes no occlusion. Still looking closer as it is fascinating the HR respond certainly at the end so here s where the wattage trend will be needed as well to see how he physiologically worked and fun would have been a non priority muscle. So same feedback on non priority muscles towards the end of an assessment or hard workout . Non priority muscles give a much better feedback on systemic reactions than local once. Once we progress more towards training guidance and end the interpretation phase of NIRS you ill see that in many cases the placement of a MOXY on a non priority muscles gives you much more feedback. Cardiac and respiratory limitations are much easier seen on non priority muscles as they are the last resort for shifting O2 or balancing homeostasis as there is the place where you have to " give " up or can afford to give up for survival. Take freezing survival ideas as an example. Now assessing and feedback during a 5/1/5 . As you have live information you will learn to see initial trend indicating some directions your body is heading too. Example. Respiratory muscle weakness. You stop for the 1 min rest and you see in the leg or in the arm or in both a hesitation of SmO2 recovery but a very fast tHB recovery. The time lag in respiratory reactions is +- 15 seconds. Now you are not sure is it just a short lag behind from the respiration and the slowly increase in CO2 will finally kick in and increase respiratory work or is it just starting to show a respiratory limitation. So you not increase the load but add a third same load 5 min section, but ask the athlete to change his respiration. Example you see he is breathing fast high RF ask him now to breath slower and deeper. If he has a specific respiratory limitation what do you may expect you may see and he may feel.? Depending on reality you see and ideas you expected you than can react and do the opposite fast and shallow. Sorry Ruud and some other reader but that's where the key element and connections is to classical feedbacks like lactate and VO2 reactions like RER.. Example : you are a coach and feels very comfortable with Max Lass ideas. Here what you can doo. Bike on Max Lass or FTP coaches or athletes load on FTP wattage. So in simple terms you are in a steady state of homeostasis. Lets take Max Lass load. You are 5 - 8 min stable let's say lactate 3.4 3.3 3.5 readings every 3 min for 9 min. Now you see in NIRS a tend in the 1 min rest after the 9 min like a trend in a respiratory limitation. delayed SmO2 reaction and fast tHb increase.. You go back to the same load give some time 5 + min again you even can take another lac sampling.. Now Max Lass again. Now change your natural respiration you had to a slow and Deep respiration or be sure you breath a lower VE so you know you go hypercapnic ( CO2 accumulation ) What will you see in SmO2 and in lactate. Than think the opposite go hypocapnic what will you see. More later as I am in the airport to Santa Ana today climbing demo and NIRS and tomorrow wresting coach from turkey and emo on respiration and NIRS for this association and country. Ryan thanks again