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bjrmd

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 #16 
Quote:
Hence best place to attach moxy on is not engaged muscle, working muscle will not show much in those efforts, it will show you are working super hard, but are you already affecting  your body at systemic level or not?


I'm glad you are having success with this approach.  As some of my anecdotal data shows, the deltoid and costal track pretty closely.  I think I even used some of your data (thanks).


However for our friend XCSkier, the deltoid is heavily used especially in poling and its relatively small size may be hard for sensor placement.  His RF data does have 70% to 0 dynamic range, is easy to place sensor there and does seem to correlate with lactate levels, which was why I suggested it as something to consider.
I still would like to see a costal tracing (but that's not going to happen easily for technical reasons).

The sport of cross country skiing is interesting (to me at least) in that it demands the intense usage of so many body parts and at varying times.
Therefore,  looking at muscle O2 at a site reflective of total body balance would certainly be helpful.
sebo2000

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Posts: 226
 #17 
Your article shows exactly what  I was trying to say about Deltoid\Moxy in cycling.

One speculative note from my side on low SmO2 on deltoid (I will confirm the same as I test few athletes at the moment and they do work on their CO2 tolerance increase, we need another 2-3 months to get some kind of valid data)
  • Stratification of athletes into low/high stroke volume classes.
I agree SV has influence on how Deltoid denaturation works, no questino about it, but low Smo2 might also be due to...:

my last year (data you have used) SmO2 drop on deltoid to 50-45% during road racing was almost equal with total "death by suffocation😉" and what I was referring to as: breath shortness.

From time perspective and measures I took to eliminate that limiter, I'm quite positive this was my body low CO2 tolerance. Right now I can take my SmO2 down to 10% and recover much easier then last year from 40-50% with way more comfort. in my case It has not much to do with Stroke Volume, but CO2 tolerance.

I agree about CX ski or any other sports, I was referring to non involved muscle, deltoid is not the one in CX ski.
Another interesting muscle to test Moxy on is sternocleaidomastoideus.


bjrmd

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 #18 
From time perspective and measures I took to eliminate that limiter, I'm quite positive this was my body low CO2 tolerance. Right now I can take my SmO2 down to 10% and recover much easier then last year from 40-50% with way more comfort. in my case It has not much to do with Stroke Volume, but CO2 tolerance


Perhaps another way of interpreting the lower deltoid O2 is that you have substantially improved your leg VO2 max (the total O2 consumption of your leg muscles).
So if your SV is pretty much the same, and leg consumption rises, other areas need to pay the price.
Of course it is probably much more complicated than that.
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #19 
A review of muscle fiber transformation centered around a new study using a 6 sec sprint protocol:

http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2018/06/muscle-fiber-transformation-hit-and.html
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #20 
A review of both physics modeling of optimal pace as well as the benefits of a "Fast start" strategy in short time trials and break aways.  VO2 on kinetics are improved, acidosis delayed using Fast start.
Many thanks to the XCSkier for sharing his data.

http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2018/06/fast-start-strategy-improving-vo2.html
stratus

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Posts: 4
 #21 
Unfortunately i must read your blog before i buy the moxy.No support,very difficult to position on your leg no active forum very little webinars with the "large" ones only technical bla bla .Help videos 1-2 minute length  just to say how great is moxy
Conclusion moxy is a very expensive toy without support
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #22 
Initial experience and review of the Hexoskin shirt used with SmO2 monitoring.
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #23 
For those of you interested in trainer vs outside road cycling from the physiologic and psychological perspective:
http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2018/07/trainer-vs-road-cycling-psychologic-and.html
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #24 
How to do a precise lactate threshold, with correlation of RF, VL, costal O2, minute ventilation and HR

http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2018/08/lactate-kinetics-cycling-power-muscle.html
AED

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Posts: 13
 #25 
BJRMD, it is very interesting to read your posts and I am happy you do such researched, but I am quite sceptical regarding lactate measuring:
- The measuring is done only every few minutes. Imagine if you could get your HR, Power, CAD or any other metric every few minutes - it would be too difficult to make any conclusions
- Also I believe that lactate should be one of the metrics, but not the one and only which you can use for final conclusions
bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #26 
Quote:
but I am quite sceptical regarding lactate measuring


Although I can understand skepticism, the measurement of a lactate threshold is a pretty "gold standard" concept and very commonly done in any type of exercise comparison study.  In fact, a goal of NIRS is to be it's surrogate marker.
My point was to avoid a conventional ramp style test and measure your threshold with more precision (and fewer steps) using the extremely clever method by Dr. Gernot Hering and associates.
sebo2000

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Posts: 226
 #27 
How to do a precise lactate threshold, with correlation of RF, VL, costal O2, minute ventilation and HR

http://www.muscleoxygentraining.com/2018/08/lactate-kinetics-cycling-power-muscle.html

You have lost me at the first sentence of your article:

One of the "promised" features of the Moxy, BSX and now Humon muscle O2 sensors is the ability to accurately measure your lactate threshold. 

If you conducting research be precise and provide all the facts; Can you point us where Moxy https://www.moxymonitor.com/ promises to accurately measure lactate? If you want to measure lactate use proper tools to do it. Moxy measures O2 saturation.

You article might confuse a lot of people, sorry I need to be critical here, as I see a lot of misunderstanding about lactate and Moxy.

One of the best books illustrating how lactate measurement can be used to achieve results (not necessarily the best way, but one of the ways)is this book: 

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_science_of_winning.html?id=x6C8BwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

Once you read this book, you will quickly realize Moxy is 10 times better, more efficient and can provide insight in to many additional areas lactate would never be able to do.

You said:
 In addition, depending of the ramp type (length of time in each zone, watt increment) different results can occur.  After reviewing literature of how to do this sort of testing, I was struck with the huge variation in how to proceed. 

And yet you introduced another method claiming is better than others...

so now we have 100 and 1 methods...



runner

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 #28 
Quote:
One of the best books illustrating how lactate measurement can be used to achieve results (not necessarily the best way, but one of the ways)is this book


The Science of Winning is a great book as it describes in great detail 
how to use lactate for effective training. It provides detailed prescription
for testing, how to interpret results and how to monitor
training progress. It also provides some example training session suggestions
for how to improve metabolic quantities based on your body type (fast twitch vs slow twitch) and test results.

The method described in the book has been used effectively for many years with top Dutch swimmers and has been used with many cyclists (STAPS and INSCYD have been using this method for 10-15 years).

It's similar to heart rate-based training and power-based training. The
amount of knowledge shared is great.

I obviously want SmO2 measuring devices to succeed, but without significant
knowledge sharing, more practical advice and being more realistic about what 
SmO2 measurement can do for an athlete (not what it could do), NIRS will
remain just an interesting research tool and potential rehab diagnostic.



bjrmd

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Posts: 43
 #29 
From the Moxy site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=69&v=wxr-Vw8ievM
https://www.moxymonitor.com/us-partners/pain-cave/

Quote:

Once you read this book, you will quickly realize Moxy is 10 times better, more efficient and can provide insight in to many additional areas lactate would never be able to do.


I don't have the book but I do have access to Pubmed and full text.  I also have discussed O2 monitoring with several top physiologists in the field.  Although a great research tool, there continues to be a lack of peer reviewed data showing using it will make you a better athlete or do a faster TT.
I continue to personally explore potential uses and hope to provide examples for others to try for themselves.  The reason I brought up lactate threshold testing in the context of the sensor manufactures is that both BSXHumon and Moxy all have published studies in this regards.

Yes, the reason I did a post on lactate testing was the huge variation of different ramps, protocols and interpretation techniques.  For people out there who actually want to do one, I found an easy, simple, and quick way that ends up giving you a more accurate number.  From the study I based my test on:

"Moreover, the widely used WL increments of 0.3–0.5
m/s in running or 30–50W in cycling respectively (Svedahl and
MacIntosh, 2003),may constrain the detection of smallmetabolic
events. The maximum variation of running velocity during the
current official world marathon record (0.07 m/s) (Kimetto,
2014) and the fastest ever recorded marathon time (0.07 m/s;
final 2.2 km 0.14 m/s) (Tucker, 2017) emphasizes the potential
fine-tuned regulation of lactate metabolism (Messonnier et al.,
2013). This suggests that elite athletes perform close to their
MLSSW, and that minor WL deviations may result in a rapid
decline of running speed or power output."





sebo2000

Development Team Member
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Posts: 226
 #30 
Yes, the reason I did a post on lactate testing was the huge variation of different ramps, protocols and interpretation techniques.  For people out there who actually want to do one, I found an easy, simple, and quick way that ends up giving you a more accurate number.  From the study I based my test on:

There is no better or worst method, It still boils down who does it, how consistently, and his experience in spotting differences between anaerobic and aerobic system development.
Ideally we would have different method for sprinters and different for long endurance athletes.

Analogy would be measuring performance of big truck and Ferrari. Many people measure lactate in one way same as they would measure speed of both cars. Obviously Truck would always be at disadvantage despite the fact it would always win if we would look at different data besides speed.

All I'm saying: there are no universal way\single test of measuring different types of people\sports\data, best way would be optimized test for what we are trying to measure. single test will never be as precises as optimized test, it will be half baked solution and everyone can claim it it is better worst etc. 

There is no golden bullet test.

I'm all for real life examples on Moxy usage, here is one form last night crit, first 35min full gas, attacks, on the edge of being dropped, but did not get dropped because I knew by looking at Moxy on Deltoid when to back off and skip the pull in the chase. Last 20 min recovering for sprint, I was able to really bring my Smo2 to very high level even in the last 3 laps where we go above 50km/h, and had great legs for final sprint.

This is not peer reviewed, this is my real life example on how to use MOXY in the race:

https://dgtzuqphqg23d.cloudfront.net/WN6beHF8RZZG1OG5xgS1-eUhey0dhzBoO53qHJhuCNo-2048x599.jpg






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