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Takura

Development Team Member
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Posts: 36
 #16 
I had planned to come back here once I had more assessment sessions with both units, but recently I am having more problems with the BSX connecting properly with ANT+ power and HR for assessments (and it seems I am not the only user with such problems).

If someone interested in both units finds this thread, I though it might be useful if this is kind of summarized including additional experience, so, that's what I am going to write.  I am not a specialist in this field though, so, I hope someone will correct me if I write nonsense.

Conceptually, the one big difference is obviously that MOXY gives raw data, while the BSX gives an interpretation of the data. With the MOXY you will quickly find that different systems (muscles, breathing, heart), different muscles (e.g. on the same leg as well as compared left to right) or even different locations on the same muscle behave differently, and there is nothing like a single LT value for your whole body. With the MOXY you might find and train your weak systems, or, find and train your strong systems, or, just properly check how your body really works, so it's potentially way more useful if you spend enough brain and time with it. Notice though of course, that the MOXY data is also just an indirect indicator for what your muscles are doing, so interpretation is everything.

My motivation for getting the BSX was to get rid of the variability of FTP tests (those where you'd ride as strong as possibly for 8 or 20 or 60 minutes) caused by differences between sessions in pacing and strength of will. Now having used the BSX for several times, I find that difference in choice of cadence, pedaling technique, daily condition, rest time, sleep, time of day, etc will influence the threshold value I get from the BSX, and correctly so. Do not expect the BSX to give precise feedback on your training status.

The other problem with the BSX at this moment though seems to be that it's neither reliable enough(having problems connecting with power and HR sensors) nor has adequate customer support (system).
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #17 
To add to this. I had done a test a month ago and saw my result on the dashboard. I looked at my dashboard again 2 weeks ago and suddenly my results changed. Very very strange and of course not possible. I think they have a lot of problems. This is by the way my second unit. The first one I could not load. And i also experience it does not pick up the Heart rate data. In essence it should be simple but it more fingers crossed.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #18 
Takura,
 Thanks for  an incredible nice feedback  and  for  me at least it is super help-full to understand  where my messy Brain  still has to learn to get the  message over, where I think somewhat different. ( which does not mean it is  the  Truth  just different  and open  for  discussion)

 Here my point where I may need  help  form  readers  on this forum:
 
" Conceptually, the one big difference is obviously that MOXY gives raw data, while the BSX gives an interpretation of the data.

For me  the  MOXY , what people call raw data is a direct interpretation on what happens.
It is  what I look for , when I work with clients. A live feedback  and a live interpretation on what I  see.

. A  classical lactate test  or a classical VO2 test is  for me a concept, which I can't use live  and therefor  is  for me not an interpretation but a indication on where I may hopefully be, when I use the test data  as HR or  as %  of VO2  when my clients  make a workout.
 Hmm lets' see, whether I  can explain that better.

Any testing we did in the past  created an end result  on this test day under this specific  conditions.
. Now  we take this result  as an "absolute"  point  and calculate somehow a  physiological zoning  based on the %   or   perhaps on some trends  from what ever   data I collected.
 Example below is a  classical lactate test from 1987.
 It shows  a   " normal"  diet  and a high carb  and a low  carb (glucose )  diet situation and the result , when   they did a  LT  assessment.
 As you can see  we have very different curves  with  therefor very different  outcomes, when we  plan zoning's  based on  one of the three  curves.
The curve is a  lactate  step test concept  with  yes  an interpretation based on the situation  which happened  on the test day.
 Based on this specific  test day interpretation ,we now  assume  as a concept , that when using this performance  wattage or  this HR  we  stimulate  a certain  intensity.
  That is based on a lot of  hope and believes.
 So  for me  now  I like to take  raw live data  and look  on day  x  whether today, when pushing the  wattage  from the test day ,  the physiological situation is the same or not. So instead of pushing the wattage  I use the wattage and than adjust the wattage  accordingly to my live raw data  and the goal I have set  for today's  workout.
 
3 kurven reichert graz lactate and diet.jpg 



Now  to not  always  " hack "  and criticize the  lactate , I  like to show a VO2  example.
 This is a  study  done to see, how different  equipment situations may influence  VO2  max  and therefore  performance.
 FM  is for face mask  and is a mask so you can breath  with mouth  and nose  as we often   do  when going hard.
MP is  mouth piece  as many great VO2  equipment  may use  a mouth piece  and they clamp your nose.
 We did a  third  version which  was nose breathing only  but I like to show here  an accepted  study  and not something  from our   kitchen.
 In short as you can see, : The way we  can  move  air in and move  air  out  so  CO2     directly influences  the  result   in VO2  max  as well as in performance.
 Now  why do I take this example.
 You ride  outside and you may have one day free  airflow  and  the next day  due to  pollen or what ever  have a stuffed  nose. Same as in this test.
 So Your  calculated  zoning based on a  FM   ability to breath  now  moves  to a  MP  situation  and is very different. The HR  or the wattage you use  as  calculated , guidance is  not very help full in this case as well.
 So the dream would be  to see live ( raw data ,) whether you have to adjust  performance  and HR  and  perhaps respiration pattern to actually  produce the  intensity you had planed to use  as today's  stimulation.
Fm  MP VO2  differecne.jpg  Now I like to add a third picture  here  to  try to explain.  Below is   one of many studies  we did unpublished  ,but I am sure we will have  earlier than later    accepted group   either taking the result apart  or confirming it.
 What you see is the lactate trends  with change in diet  as we have  from the  1987  studies  and many more studies.
 The lactate curve  moves  to the right indicating  an improvement of  performance, when in fact   performance is often  worse  when completely empty of  glucose. When the lactate curve  moves to the right we see the SmO2  curve  moving to  the left  and  as such  indicating a drop in performance ,so the opposite  on what lactate would indicate due to  positioning of the curve. Live  O2  feedback  tells us more likley the reality  and  live lactate values  may  sent us   into the wrong direction ????
. Now the raw  MOXy data  you can read  out live as  numbers or  as a live graph on  the new Garmin watches  will exactly do that . They give   in my opinion a live interpretation for   your current workout.. Go  harder  , go slower  or  you are  right on .
 The  data  I would get  from a lactate test  whether you did  it with  blood sampling or indirect  with a  concept  of  hopefully the three minute  test   combined  with a  hopefully normal loaded    glucose  situation   will  give you a  wattage  or HR  which hopefully on day  x  12 days after my last  lactate test still holds  the  truth seem to me a  great concept  but a poor interpretation  for a  workout intensity. The equipment as well will tell you go harder or  slower  or you are  right on, but  you may be  completely off, as the  right  or wrong is based on an   information ( interpretation ) done 3  weeks ago under   perhaps very different conditions  than I have  during my todays  workout.

 Why would I  go with that feedback, when I  have a live feedback ?

 The MOXY live  workout  gives  me the live interpretation. If  my goal was to  do a MAX LASS workout,  so stable  metabolic   situation. The  test 3  weeks ago tells me 215  watt  or 167 HR , than I rather  go and look at SmO2  trends  which has to be stable   and I can do  small and short feedbacks  during my  ride, whether I am on MAX LASS    and I can add additional live, whether I  am on a max lass situation  just for my Limiter or whether I  actually  use as well a compensator. Easy  and fast  do do  with same small 30  40 seconds loads  during my ride. You add  wattage  and HR  to the live feedback of  MOXY  and you can do all of that.

 


NIRS  and  lactate curve.jpg 


So below  an example of a  workout  with   control of  interpretation  and live raw data.

software exampl;e.jpg 
Above:  Forget the second half so just look at 40 min preparation for  a  specific workout.
 The goal was to find the optimal SmO2  stable level  with  an optimal stable tHb and a flat  HR.
. They  could use their FTP  as a baseline  from a FTP test.
 In this case the FTP  was tested at 210 wattage.
 So they did 10 min 100 watt , 10 min 150 watt , 10 min 200 watt and 10 min 250 watt.. The question they had  to answer  was:
What performance  do you think  can you push today  with stable SmO2  , stable tHb  and stabel HR. What    do you have to doo  and whne in this warm up , if you  have to  workout   now 60 min on the  stable SmO2 , stable tHb  and stable HR.
What is going on when:
 A)  SmO2 is stable, tHb is stable  and HR is  going up. ?
b) SmO2 is stable  tHb is dropping  and HR is going up?
C) Smo2 is  dropping HR is going up  and tHb is going up ?
d) SmO2 is dropping  HR is going up  and tHb is dropping ?

  I may show more of  questions on physiological thinking I do with my grad  10 - 12 students, who make a   carrier prep  program in my office. Fun and challanging  and the kids  are great and love  challanges  . 
Now  If the  task is  a stable SmO2  and stable HR  and stable  tHb  I can see live, when  and what I may have to change to fullfill this task.

 So what  do I have to do , when SmO2 is stable  and HR is going up  and tHb is going up for example.
 You are NOT allowed  to change  for the moment performance. ???

Summary.
 I  use  MOXY raw datas  with all of my clients not as a concept,  but as a live feedback on immediate  adjustments depending on the task I give them to achieve.
 Same as I would use  a HR monitor  or a  respiratory frequency feedback or a wattage   feedback to adjust on the task I set .
 Please come back  as it may sound very confusing ,but   help as I think it is very easy.

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