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QFieldBoden

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 #1 
Hi

Has anyone any practical "real world" experience of looking at Moxy data and it's potential in terms of evaluating fatigue, or developing fatigue?

Let's say over a period of time, for the same absolute workloads (W), a cyclist finds that his SmO2 readings are becoming lower when measured at the same physical location.

Could this finding indicate developing fatigue or any number of other things? I'm just still trying to work out a way that the Moxy data can be used in a truly practical way and it would be helpful if some work had been done in terms of using this data to monitor fatigue.

Thoughts?

Q
Ruud_G

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 #2 
Haven't got a real practical example but somewhere in the back of my head there is this thing about the speed of SmO2 recovery rates when doing certain loads. Can't remember where I have seen it though. Wrt the level of the readings (e.g in rather steady state intervals) it maybe hard to tell, but when there are different readings of the level you might get an idea what might cause the fatigue; respirational overload, cardiac overload,...Fatigue is a multifactoral and can manifest differently. Maybe someone has an idea wrt the correlations between daily rest SmO2 and HRV for example.
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
There  are many great studies  out there    from the  earlier days of SEMG  with the same idea  and than  about  10 years back  using a combination of SEMG  and NIRS  to find this answer.
There are  many variables and  even  more ideas out there  what fatigue  actually means  and who  is fatigued. So an interesting idea   and yes  many   ideas on  how to try to use  NIRS to find this answer
 We  tried to see whether NIRS  and  phase angles, NIRS reaction  and respiratory reaction over RRA  as  explained  somewhere on here.  .
 Or  NIRS  and HRV  or  NIRS  and SEMG  activity .  and  more options.
 Will be great if somebody  takes on this   task again  and see,whether they come up  with an option    for this  parameter ' fatigue..  Great  to  ask this interesting  question.
Marcel

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 #4 
Hi Q,

have a look at the first two pics on this thread. Where the same athlete has different reactions due to complete fatigue. SmO2 similar but thb has a total diffrent reaction.

 http://forum.moxymonitor.com/post/two-diffrent-reactions-same-athlete-7762686
juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Just  coming in  from the local ice rink  form   figure skating coaching  team work.  And   yesterday  from a introduction in some additional training ideas  for a local down hill skier.  In both cases  I could not get rid  of  one forum  question :
I'm just still trying to work out a way that the Moxy data can be used in a truly practical way


Somehow  I still feel terribly  to  show  that MOXY is all  but  for sure practical  application.
 I  have  more problem to  make  a conclusion   for fatigue  or  what is better or  worse, than I have to   see the value in practical application. Here the  2  above examples in practical terms.

Skier.
  Post ops  rerun  after an ACL. Was  lats  weekend  first time on snow.
 Felt  not great and   insecure. Coaching stiff mainly  put it on mental readiness  and fear.
Which is  for sure always a big  part to return to any activity where the last time  you did this  ended  up  not very great and  painful.
So the parent    call in to ask me  to do an assessment.
 In short  result.
R  ACL leg is not yet physiological  finish in rehab.
 The work they  did was not enough sprint  nor   metabolic specific . The only symmetry  they    found or used is a cybex  test..
 So   I invited the coach  and parents  and we did some live  feedback  loads  ski  specific  and inter-muscular  ski  specific.
 Nice  screen  MOXY feedback  4  placing .; left and right leg quad  and hamstrings.
 My job:  ask question.  Parents  coach and athletes  job  give answers.
 Instruction to  forget  absolute numbers  just look at trends
 SmO2  and tHb.
  They  never  head  anything to do  with MOXY/NIRS before but after  30 min they had  the  result teh answer  and now it was up to em  to design a  workout  to   reduce the limitation  and they will use  MOXY as a feedback    for the  workouts.

So this triggered another lesson  for my  grade 10 - 12  students.
 Today's task.
 Tell em , what the  parents  coach  and  athlete most like   had as  feedback. what was the difference between  right and left leg  when  we locked  at tHb  and SmO2 trends. ?  My job than will be  to argue  against their  idea, even if  I believe they  are right. So  hard  discussion to see, whether they  are able to stick to their   explanation  and can back it up  or not. Than  we will look weakness in the argumentation and  follow up  what they ahve to  do to back it up  with  small  ideas to show the reaction.
 last step is  to   help to designee a  workout  for this  case.
 Goal  ; Inter muscular integration of quad.
Intramuscular ccordination
Stimulation of   functional  desaturation.
Lats  move it on snow 


Case 2  skating easy  fast  and simple solution.
 Shows  up in rehab. Bruised  butt  and   painful Hoff'a as well as patella tendon.
 Discussion, move to the rink   with coach. Live feedback  of her current training regime.
 Followed by correction as there was simply not enough recovery in between  element  and jumps  so  thB   showed the lack of recovery  and SmO2  as well.
 Change of the  workout routine  by   doing 50 %  less jumps.
.
Result less crashes , result   more successful  jumps  better landing  less pain  and in a  week  re assessment  and  problem  may be solved.
 No treatment   ( bad business idea ) but  correction for some  classical skating coaches    problems  more is better  more hours needed, versus  less  but quality is better  so less hour  needed, less injuries.

 The live feedback is doing my job. This are  simple  direct  fast practical   situations. Any coach  with  a  even small open mind   immediately  starts  smiling as he found the solution to many  problems( Not  all )

So I need some help  to try  to explain to this  reader on this the read    how  easy  and  fast practical applications  are  with MOXY.
 Help   and tell me  where  and why i  can not get the  information through ?

juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Okay  here just a feedback.
 Goal was  for the coach. As  many  loads  with a  top  muscle contraction. Do not worry  about numbers  just about  tHb  feedback.
 As  soon the contraction is over the workout is over, Do not worry about  how long the workout was  as time , numbers  and sets  do not mean anything in physiological terms.  This  is NOT easy , when you are  educated   classical, as  more is better  harder is better , hours    are important.
  So here the result. Great woke  but stuck on  5  fingers. His  respond  was, Well I  should  have stopped the   workout after three but I thought  5  are better.  So this is  another  simple example  of a practical  use  of MOXY.

all 5 loadfs.jpg


You can easy see  first perfect, second  okay  muscles contraction wise  still great  metabolic  already into trouble  so you could see it coming  . Third  workout is over, but 5  fingers   sounded better.
 So really one perfect motor pattern a  second  good one  with some metabolic  dilemma    and than the  coordination is gone.
 So really 3   loads  with a a wrong  pattern stimulation..  Unfortunately  the stimuli  is  stronger in this case  for the wrong pattern than  for the good pattern. Stop  after 2  and it would be great  stop after 3  and it is okay. The rest is  loss of goal  or target we set  and   getting even deeper into the wrong pattern..

juergfeldmann

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 #7 

Here an additional feedback  on

Has anyone any practical "real world" experience of looking at Moxy data and it's potential in terms of evaluating fatigue, or developing fatigue?

As many pointed  out  " fatigue " is an interesting term  for many options.  Once more people  use  NIRS  for many different options we will have  more feedback  on how they  find  ' Fatigue " trends.
 So I look forward , whether they  are similar  to what we use   NIRS  for workouts.
 Here again a  practical example.
 We use  NIRS/ MOXY  to   verify  , whether a  muscle groups  is more FTF  or STF  fiber   set.
 So  in rehab    we have a problem, that we loose STF  fibers  faster when in a  cast  and as well when  inactive  due to   pre ops reason.
 So  when we do pre ops  screening  with NIRS and post ops  immediately the next  day and than every 3 weeks we see the  speed of loss of STF   properties.
 Than once we  start rehab  and do the same  daily we can see, whether the load  we  choose really  increases the STF  property  back to  pre ops  situation or not.
 This way  we  know  now , what loads  stimulates more likely  STF  development or  FTF  development.
 In  no rehab  clients  we can use   eh same

 fatigue " of r better  recovery index  to   get  a better idea, whether  a mussel  is more STF  or FTF  trending.
 We  for sure will have this   in the next 1  -2  years  more often  as a discussion point on any NIRS  forum  or even on other forums  as it is fascinating  that we ca use  NIRS  for this  normally very invasive  ideas to find out.

nlsp

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Posts: 13
 #8 
Good morning,
here is a simple to use and assess on-ice hockey warm-up of a top midget hockey player (16 yrs old) performing the team warm-up that they use before each game (60+ games)

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nlsp

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Posts: 13
 #9 
on-ice rehab, like they say in the NHL...a lower body injury [smile]
1st pic athlete is performing skill - edge work
2nd pic is performing coordination skills - puck retrieval, position specific movements and shots

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nlsp

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Posts: 13
 #10 
This was a beautiful day in Davos, ready for a nice hike up a mountain to have breakfast at restaraunt overlooking Davos (1861m), then at the bottom of the mountain Ju-crazy lets us know we are going to hockey bound up the mountain with a Moxy and watch to guide our load and recovery time...the goal is to make it up to breakfast haha. These are my SmO2 and SmO2 with tHb...Juerg has the other athletes' files...by the way, I am an ex-hockey player (47 yrs old) who had not done any hockey bounds for atleast 10 yrs...using the Moxy as a guide I made it and felt surprisingly, good...breakfast has never tasted soooo good.

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nlsp

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Posts: 13
 #11 
Pro Hockey player on-ice assessment; upper body injury (neck surgery), been on ice skating for 3 weeks and heading back to team in 2 weeks. He is skating with a Junior team to get back in shape, so we put 2 Moxys on him to show him 'live' what is happening and so he can learn the 'feeling of on-coming fatigue' and when he is recovered...started drill 1 with team, where you skate the length of the ice, stop and come back and repeat when your turn in the lineup-he did not recover, so I called him over and we adjusted the recovery time based on his physiology. The last 3 loads are sprints from blue line to blue line.

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