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Rachel

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 #1 
I've been reading and rereading this forum, watching the videos on the Moxymonitor youtube account and honestly I'm not sure I'm really any further ahead.  

Is there a way for the non-science minded, regular everyday athlete to be able to use this tool and incorporate it into their own training?  I'm fortunate in the fact that I have an awesome coach who is able to interpret data for me but I want to be able to do some of that myself.  When I see the graph on my garmin while I'm out on my swim, bike or run I want to be able to react to the data I'm seeing in the moment or come home and download my graph and be able to somewhat understand what I'm looking at.  

Suggestions, thoughts?



Ruud_G

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 #2 
Spot on with these very practical questions Rachel. This is what's is all about when using Moxy as a training tool (and not in a lab or condition that a coach monitors continuously). Unfortunately those questions are hard to answer (is my opinion) at the moment and depends very much on the type of workout you will be doing / the coach will tell you to do. Let alone interpret the data yourself when not an expert
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Great point  and great challenge  as I use  MOXY  daily  with   people in the age range of  70  and older, so no   computer freaks  or   with a lot of hesitation towards technology. I use it in my office    for live feedback  on cardiac  patients  and  they use it  with a  simple  garmin watch outside, when the weather  is okay  for an outside  walk.
 So  will be back  here  to show  how  and  why it is  pretty straight forward. The key is  in fact to use it  as you go  so you save time   and not have to download it  .
 Great  great  help Rachel  and Ruud  for this  specific  thread here.   Now  need   some small help  so I can get  very specific   form both of you  .
  1.  Give me a  goal   of a workout  you do in running  biking or what ever.
 .2. Tell me  the goal the duration  of your workout  and what is your current limiter  and or compensator.
3. If you have no  Limiter or compensator information it does not matter but the workout will be  much less specific  and less easy to target  with  feedback  from MOXY.. 3  so if you have no Limiter or compensator tell me  why you would choose this workout  and what  you hope to accomplish  with it.
4. For Ruud to keep a   level  playing field  , if you use wattage    and you  tell me the goal  you like to achieve  can you add the  studies  or papers  showing , that this  %  of  FTP load really achieve this goal  and  how  you  re assess, whether this really happened Thnaks  and   we  will look  forward  to this  section here. .
Rachel

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 #4 
Thanks so much.  I sent an email to Sandy with those questions so I make sure that you get the right info. 
juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Great Rachel.
 Here a  shooting back.
 You like as an everyday athlete to use  MOXY ?
  Why  would you have to ask  your coach  for the  goal. ???
 Why  do we  " treat" MOXY use different than any other tool we use  like a wattage   equipment a HR  monitor  a speed sensor and so on.
 Try to formulate your  goal  on your own  and see, what we get from there.
Rachel

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 #6 
Valid point!  
I actually don't know my compensator so I was hoping she could answer that.  

Ok here's my take:

My limiter is respiratory.
I would assume from my last 5/1/5 test that my compensator is cardiac but again, not sure.
My goal on a normal run (1hr) or long run (2hrs+) is always slow and easy.  I know that this helps with building more path ways and mitochondria which as an endurance athlete are important.  

And to answer why we treat it differently, for me, is because I understand so little of it.
juergfeldmann

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 #7 
Great  start here.
 Now  for  any regular reader.
 Rachel is  already advanced  as she already  talks  about  limiter and compensator.
 If we treat MOXY like any other common used tools ,we have to start  the same  way.
 So  lets' rephrase the question and forget MOXY  for the moment.
 You have   a heart rate monitor perhaps or you have a wattage feedback as a cyclist or you are a cross country skier  so perhaps as well a HR monitor.That's it. That's what we  work or worked in the past.when  the new kid  was not on the block yet.
So you are a runner, cyclist cross country skier and you like to start a workout.
 How  and on what  is  or was your training plan build on  and did you asked  some critical questions, whether that makes sense  and whether it can be used  for practical applications  or  do we just did it because somebody  sold the idea ?
 So how as  live   before MOXY ?.
 Any body please pitch in here so we have a debate and can clear up the  discussion on practical applications between what we did  or do and  what we  could add on.?
 
 Is that a  fair start or  what  do you think.
 So goals setting  for Rachel  and the rest. Step back  before the MOXY  time  and tell what the goal of the workout is  and how  do you plan to achieve that goal and what feedback options ( besides  performance improvement ) do you have  to back up that  workout  you did  achieved the target.

 Lets' put  as Ruud pointed out  no double standard  from what  we  do here and what is done   before s No selling  of   dreams just simply use   facts  and  feedback's.
Rachel

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 #8 
"So goals setting  for Rachel  and the rest. Step back  before the MOXY  time  and tell what the goal of the workout is  and how  do you plan to achieve that goal and what feedback options ( besides  performance improvement ) do you have  to back up that  workout  you did  achieved the target."

Before I started training with Moxy I trained with 
heart rate (zones 1-5) and keeping it in certain zone.  I have a coach because I have no idea how to train myself or what goals should be.  I pick a goal race and tell my coach and she sets my program.  I'm not sure how to answer the question of goal differently...  The main goal is to go longer until I'm trained for the distance I want to go.  If I can go harder (faster pace/cover more distance in the assigned time) and keep my heart rate in zone then I always considered it a bonus/great workout.  And most the group of people I run with are generally the same idea.  Even without a coach they find a program online that tells them to run X distance on Y day and in the end you will be trained for your goal distance. So the proof to know a target was achieved would just be a longer run or downloading data that showed I kept my heart rate in the target zone while completing the assign time.  So in keeping with the theme of previous training tools I'd like to be able to complete the assigned workout with Moxy and know if I did accomplish the goal.  Apart from doing the distance I wouldn't be able to tell really at this point.  Especially since my Sm02 hardly moves during training at all.  

So learning and incorporating Moxy is maybe a big jump from simply following a training program.  But why can't I follow a training program and still understand what is going on with my body and learn to work with what it's showing me to better help me improve.  (Be faster, more efficient, increase the limits on my limiter, etc).  Maybe I'm just way out of my league with this.
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #9 
Rachel
 you are  the golden  girl, as this is the dream of  a forum,  as we have it here ,as the  answers  and questions are  perfect  and open ended. Thanks so  much
 Here  an initial answer  but we will go far   deeper into this great discussion.

1.Before I started training with Moxy I trained with heart rate (zones 1-5) and keeping it in certain zone.  I have a coach because I have no idea how to train myself or what goals should be.  I pick a goal race and tell my coach and she sets my program.  I'm not sure how to answer the question of goal differently...  Rachel  ,
 
No need  to answer the question of goal setting differently.
 You  do  what so many would benefit  to do. You take a professional   far  advanced  coach in Sandy, who doe snot use a  calculator  but  is using physiological feed backs  to  work  with your individual  strength and weaknesses  and  as in many other profession we hope  we have a great  trainer or  contact  so we  can trust  and  go  ahead  with this team work.

 Ruud made  once the point, that it is    from his opinion  not really  ready or too complex  for practical applications  for the average non physiological educated    athlete  out there, but he  can see  coaches  using the tool.

 I  absolutely agree  for the moment  with this statement.
 and I  would even narrow it down  to .
MOXY is a great additional tool  for  planning individual training ideas  and program  for coaches  , who move   ahead  with their own   ability to get better  and  challenge their own  current ideas  to be  better.

 It is  as in any other profession. You  may buy  the first time a  computer and you go to a professional  to get all installed  and ready to run.
 Over time  as we often have  some smaller problems  you learn  and you invest time on how  to fix  smaller problems  on your own  and you get better and better.
. Did  somebody ever tried  to use a  software like  the great golden cheetah  go  on their great forum and look the many questions  and smaller  or bigger problems  people have daily  when running that software.
 Nevertheless there are many  who invest time and interest  and will get better and better. What is the difference  with using MOXY ?
  That's  why we are here and you  are asking this great questions.  So  Sandy   is  far ahead of the  bio markers  integration in future  coaching  and she  will give you workouts  based on what she can see  and find  and is one of the great coaches, who  gives  us  her  feedback and ideas  and we  often discuss it  after the fact.
 Sandy  sent  many many 5/1/5  assessments  to Switzerland ( Andri )  and after a very short time she  had 95 %  of the interpretations  bang on. 5 %  is always here to discus and our  opinion  is  not always the right one  but the key is  to have  both opinion  and than the coach  with the experience  and the  close relationship  with the athlete  can make an informed  decision..


So in keeping with the theme of previous training tools I'd like to be able to complete the assigned workout with Moxy and know if I did accomplish the goal

Maybe I'm just way out of my league with this.

Starting  with the league. : You are already  far  ahead  of your league  as you  seem to be  very interested in knowing more than just following great orders.  As  to defend  any online  program.
 You do not need  any tool , but running shows   and not even that,  but let's say time and  the majority of us  will make  progress when they do anything more or less  properly structured. It is less what you  do   rather r what   or when you do nothing.


 There is not one training  or  workout  , who makes  you better or  where you are sure you make  progress. It is  what  you do after the workout ( recovery )  which will decide, whether the catabolic stimulus  most workouts  will create  can be turned  over into  an anabolic    reaction    and  first a functional reaction and hopefully followed by a structural adaptation.

The interesting  part is that as better the training program the worse the athlete will be as a god  workout plan  will  make a  nice  catabolic end result.
 The key again is to have a  balanced  load  recovery  idea  and the recovery is often planned   after we have the catabolic reaction for the workout.

BIG Problem. Most people  are ready to pay  for a  workout plan as we can look very intelligent  by  creating  very sophisticated  looking plan  with %  and  duration and loads  like  10 x 3min 95 %  or what ever  with a 4 min rest in between each load   and so on. Physiologically  it is not backed  up    besides it is a training load. Why 10  why this  amount  of min  why 95 %  an is  95 %  at the end the same stimulus  as the first one ?  Nevertheless  we all do this I do it  other do it.
 
 We  try to slightly ,as you can see ,change this  so we have somewhat more ideas now what we  may stimulate.
 It needs a fundamental  change in thinking and that is the  hard  step  to make.
  Now the above plan , depending on  my name as   coach, I can sell. .
What I cannot sell is a recovery plan no body will pay me  to come by in the morning, we do an   easy assessment , may be HRV  or RRA  ( respiratory resting assessment )or  perhaps a baseline  3  step MOXY assessment, Than I look through the data's  and tell you, Okay  today you go home  back to bed  and relax .
 This suggestion  will cost you  20  $
 HMmmm what do we think about  that. when in fact this suggestion may lead to progress , where as  another workout may lead to an injury ???

So in keeping with the theme of previous training tools I'd like to be able to complete the assigned workout with Moxy and know if I did accomplish the goal.

 
Now  you do NOT give up n the HR  feedback but you add  new  MOXY  to it.
You combine  both  and MOXY will give  you  feedback on today's adjustment  due to  yesterdays  workout.  Let's see whether I  can get that one  through.

 Heart rate  believers  run with a stable HR in a defined  zone. Example 130 - 140 may be  one  zone you may  have to work in.

 Now performance believers  will argue  with right, that  when I start in the 130 - 140  HR  zone it may be 8 km/h  or  150 watt.

Now  that creates the ongoing discussion.
Performance believers  argue   you have to stay in the fixed performance  zone  to  stay in the planned  zoning.
 
Now  for HR users that  may mean, that you loose your HR  zone  as your  HR  may drift  out of the 140  range into the 150 range  and on different days  different extreme.
 So you "lost " your HR  zone  but you kept  your performance   zone.

Question  did you kept  your physiological stimulation  which was assigned  to this  zone ?

Now  turn it around. You  force  yourself to stay in the HR  zone  so you will have to give up the performance  zoning  and you may have to drop performance  as  Performance will drift  downwards  as longer you may  go in that HR  intensity.

 This is  an ongoing  debate  form both sides  with seemingly no winner.
 Than you add the  mathematical calculation discussion  whether the %  of  max HR  or  any  max tats is really  the way we  ;look at physiological reactions  or  whether we should  focus  on actually looking  at physiological reactions.

 Now here is  where we  see the great  add on  for  tools  for  coaches  and athletes.
 Why not add a  bio feedback information  for what we all use  to plan intensities.,
 We look  for the golden point as so often explained, where we  find the " aerobic  and anaerobic " zones ' crossing.
 Some name it LT  some name it  FTP  some name it a  %  of  some max. Some even believe we  can use  a  random test idea  like 3 min  and the slope , where the lactate increases more than  1mmol  two  times in a row is the  golden point. I   used  an idea like lactate balance point  to find this.
 Why  do we do this,?
 because it is  of  some values  for  any activity , as we only can sustain an activity over  a longer  time  and  as we know now as well over a shorter  time, when we  have  supply  of  O2.
.
 So  with a MOXY /NIRS we  can do now  what we never where able to do before , we actually can follow  O2  reactions instead of using indirect great  but  as  mentioned indirect ideas  to find this situation. I name now  more   the point , where  supply  of O2  can not keep up  with the demand  and now  we are  out of O2  supply and demand balance  and we  have a time bomb on hand  to sustain the current  load  or performance. The duration is more dependent now on the ability  to  harvest as  good as possible the  still available O2 and again to see, what system may  be helpful in this  task  so  able to compensate.
 CO2  is  a compensator  but as mentioned  there is a time limitation and a  concentration limitation before this   come sot an a  end as well.

Now  that is  what we  will use  your 5/1/5  to  establish, How  do you use  performance  or HR  or  performance and HR  and add MOXY  so you can stay in your individual  physiological intensity by having  some  days to adjust  load  and some days  you may  have to adjust HR.

The fact  that so many are keen to get  to this level shows  that there  are many questions.
 The problem> We  can only move that fast in this way of a Forum. That's'  why we have  weekend  and longer  workshops   in Switzerland  and some in the the USA  so we  can in a very small group  but highly  efficient ,  do  just that  practical approaches  so when people leave they see how they can use that.
 On here ,we  just need tot be somewhat  more patient  and  we will get to your case Rachel as promised. Every time I  try to go there I  find some great  additional question on here.  so  next  will be just you and your  5/1/5  and your   interpretation  options we  will get together with your help from where we  already started  and than how you use MOXY,if you need it . MOXY  for certain workouts  where it makes sense. Hope this helps a little bit.
Rachel

Development Team Member
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Posts: 15
 #10 
This was very helpful Juerg!  Thank you very much for taking the time, each time, to answer the questions.  I will chew on this info for awhile and take some recovery time. [wink] 

Sorry for all the questions.  I will be patient and await further posts.  [smile]
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