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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
A  very interesting  direction takes  now place  in some cycling groups.
 The  best site  for me  is  the golden cheetah Google group site.
 There is a wealth  of great brains  moving  incredible interesting ideas   around.
 For me the fascinating   part is top learn to understand their  world in   power  and  assumptions  and prediction  and combine it  with my small world  of  physiological reactions.
 On e section I play around is  W bal and  tHb  and  SmO2  ( or HHb  and  O2Hb.
  For me it is  super nice  to see and wait    from this directions on what they find out  and not interfere  with  my small minded  ideas.
  It will be   nice to see, whether they come to some similar  conclusions  on how W  Bal  and  MOXY  actually may  or may not  complement each other and where the difference is  between calculating   predicted    trends  versus  seeing physiological  live trends.
 Here just  two  pictures  where this interesting overlap may take place  . What is missing  for the moment form this groups is the integration of  tHb.
 My    personal; questions is:
 If  I know  where  my critical power  may be   no matter  what historical ideas I may us  or  when I see W  bal dropping.  Why is that happening, what causes  this  performance reactions and what may  limit in the different people the  level of CP  and reactions in W  bal.
 That is  where I think the  combination of their incredible work   with  MOXY live feedback can  increase the performance improvement   by  actually  still looking at LIMITER  and  compensator.
 Will be fun to follow this    stories  as they develop  and Ruud  may    give  us some feedback's  as well Here  two  small insight  pictures  of  W  bal and HHb  and W  Bal  and O2 Hb  fro  Mark Liveredge

hb  and w  bal end.jpg  Red is  W  bal  and blue  is the
O2 hb  and  W bal.jpg

 Red is  again W  bal  and   purple    is  O2 Hb

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Small add on:
 remember  my  question?
  If  I know  where  my critical power  may be   no matter  what historical ideas I may us  or  when I see W  bal dropping.  Why is that happening, what causes  this  performance reactions and what may  limit in the different people the  level of CP  and reactions in W  bal.
That is  where I think the  combination of their incredible work   with  MOXY live feedback can  increase the performance improvement   by  actually  still looking at LIMITER  and  compensator.

So  look at  the question ( indirect  question    from the    developper  of  W  bal below :

Effect of Work and Recovery Durations on W ' Reconstitution during Intermittent Exercise

Philip F Skiba

  •  

Medicine and science in sports and exercise (Impact Factor: 4.46). 01/2014; 46(7). DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0000000000000226

Source: PubMed

ABSTRACT

We recently presented an integrating model of the curvature constant of the hyperbolic power-time relationship (W') that permits the calculation of the W' balance (W'BAL) remaining at any time during intermittent exercise.

While a relationship between recovery power and the rate of W' recovery was demonstrated, the effect of the length of work or recovery intervals remains unclear.


After determining V˙O2MAX, critical power (CP) and W', 11 subjects completed 6 separate exercise tests on a cycle ergometer on different days, and in random order. Tests consisted of a period of intermittent severe-intensity exercise until the subject depleted approximately 50% of their predicted W'BAL, followed by a constant work rate (CWR) exercise bout until exhaustion. Work rates were kept constant between trials; however, either work or recovery durations were varied. The actual W' measured during the CWR (W'ACT) was compared to the amount of W' predicted to be available by the W'BAL model.
Although some differences between W'BAL and W'ACT were noted, these amounted to only -1.6 ±1.1 kJ when averaged across all conditions. The W'ACT was linearly correlated with the difference between V˙O2 at the start of CWR and V˙O2MAX (r = 0.79, p < 0.01).
The W'BAL model provided a generally robust prediction of CWR W'. There may exist a physiological optimum formulation of work and recovery intervals such that baseline V˙O2 can be minimized, leading to an enhancement of subsequent exercise tolerance. These results may have important implications for athletic training and racing.

  

 I  will show you  some interesting findings  we  collected over the years  with  " recovery" or  in other  words  with trends in re-oxygenation.. Interesting will be  whether the concept  of  W  bal   can be  moved into  any kind  of activities like  biceps  curls  or other  more  limited muscle groups involvements.
If we have physiological feedbacks  it  does not matter  what activities  we  do. If  we  have mathematical models  we may have  more limitations   when we change  activities  drammatically.
  So  in many cases the  test  or research protocol  may create a result  rather than the  actual physiological reaction.
I will show  some of the " recovery   findings on the strength information area.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Had  one  nice  email back.
 Question:
 recovery  and W  bal.
 . My  short  question or thoughts  are, that recovery is  very dependent  on physiological  situation after a load.
 Example. Was the load limited  due to delivery 9 Blood flow )  or  due to utilization  ( mitochondria  density for  example.
 So in the cycling terms  how  far  are you of  CP  and  what limits your CP  delivery or utilization.
 Depending on this  findings  you may have very different    recovery  reaction.
 But let's  this discussion  with    the  people working  with W  bal  here  a great  insight   view in this discussion.
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golden-cheetah-users/aEwntP2KGE4

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
I got  a nice  series  of  emails on the CP  question.
I  not even like to get into this discussions  as many great experts  seem to have some discussions  with different outcomes on this  topic.
 Here on interesting summary  form many years  back  and it is  ongoing. 

The critical power concept. A review.

Hill DW1.

Author information

  • 1Exercise Physiology      Laboratory, University of North Texas, Denton.

Abstract

The basis of the critical power concept is that there is a hyperbolic relationship between power output and the time that the power output can be sustained. The relationship can be described based on the results of a series of 3 to 7 or more timed all-out predicting trials. Theoretically, the power asymptote of the relationship, CP (critical power), can be sustained without fatigue; in fact, exhaustion occurs after about 30 to 60 minutes of exercise at CP. Nevertheless, CP is related to the fatigue threshold, the ventilatory and lactate thresholds, and maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max), and it provides a measure of aerobic fitness. The second parameter of the relationship, AWC (anaerobic work capacity), is related to work performed in a 30-second Wingate test, work in intermittent high-intensity exercise, and oxygen deficit, and it provides a measure of anaerobic capacity. The accuracy of the parameter estimates may be enhanced by careful selection of the power outputs for the predicting trials and by performing a greater number of trials. These parameters provide fitness measures which are mode-specific, combine energy production and mechanical efficiency in 1 variable, and do not require the use of expensive equipment or invasive procedures. However, the attractiveness of the critical power concept diminishes if too many predicting trials are required for generation of parameter estimates with a reasonable degree of accuracy.


I not  even like to   pull MOXY   /NIRS  into this discussions, as it is the same  when we  try to use NIRS  to predict  lactate.
 If you like to  look for lactate,  take a lactate analyzer  so you do not have to predict  anything just hope you are plus  minus .2 accurate in the reading  and did not made  too much mistakes  when taking blood.
  If you like to try to predict  CP  than use a power meter  and    follow the many suggestions  on how to find  CP  from 3 min all out  ideas to  much longer time units. Again theh experts  can come up  with some  suggestions.

 If you like to have a metabolicfeedback on   delivery  and utilization of  oxygen  from a  certian body  area  and or  from noninvolved areas, than use  a NIRS /MOXY.

  Now  when I go  all out  for  3 min  I see with NIRS a different metabolic   trend in  delivery  and utilization due to the time  limitations, than when I go all out  for  30 min  with the goal  to sustain the "all "out  for  30 min.
 Depending   on  how I go all out    I may have  different  physiological reactions.
 Do I start " cold " or  did  I prepare for the  30 min   maximal  sustainable  load ?.
 Is my body  fully recovered  or  is my  blood volume( plasma volume  )  lower or higher after  yesterdays intervention.
 If  it is lower  my CO  may be today the limitation.
 If it is higher my  muscular  strenght my be  today  my limitation and so on.

 So    what ever you use  to  find your CP  or  critical sustainable performance in different sports.  at least  MOXY will tell you what limited  today this  result  or outcome.
 Again power does not tell you anything on  how  and  why you  created this result today.

rowing rtace.jpg 


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 

Simple questions  :

1. If you can mathematical  calculate  something   and you get a  model , which may tell you  whether you are exhausted
or
 You can actually see live  in front of  you , when  you are  very close to exhausted :
 What  would you as an athlete or personal  coach prefer to  use  or have ?

  2. If you can calculate   whether you are  recovered 
or 
you can actually see  whether you   recovered. live.

 What  would you prefer  to use in any  activity  not limited  to a specific  sport.?

  3,  For  cycling expert .
 How  will W bal react   when compared  to  HHb  or O2Hb  or SmO2  or the opposite  how will HHb  and O2Hb  and SmO2  react compared to  W  Bal ?


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