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CraigMahony

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 #31 
Thanks Juerg. That helped a lot. I had not heard of the Greek versions of the muscular contractions types previously. I am still not sure I fully understand all you said. 

Now  id we  do a  race or  workout where they have an uncommon high %  of plimetric  muscle activity  like running very long downhill and never trained this  we see a severe muscle damage  the following days.
 Now  when we  do a  SmO2 tHb  assessment and compared  with  recovered  once  we see no a  much lower  start  and   over level of SmO2. Why ?

So you are saying that after severe pliometric(eccentric) exercise when we get muscle damage we will see a lower resting and maximal SmO2 values? Or tHb? Or both? If this is so, when are we talking? I presume this is immediately until recovered. Also I am unable to answer your question on why this might be so. If the SmO2 values are lower I presume this means more is being used? Or is less being delivered? Can you help a little more please?

Another question. I sometimes coach some triathletes for running. I have yet to use a Moxy on any of them. However, if I were to do an assessment on them, how would I know if they were like your 100 mile runner with a larger MB content, or someone who has a utilisation problem perhaps due to a lack of mitochondria? Can a 5-1-5 assessment distinguish the difference?
juergfeldmann

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 #32 
Craig  here a trend we see  to your question.

 So you are saying that after severe pliometric(eccentric) exercise when we get muscle damage we will see a lower resting and maximal SmO2 values? Or tHb? Or both? 

If  mitochondria   are involved in the damage  of the pliometric  load  we seem to  loose  some  " storage "  ability  so SmO2   compared  to recover  has a lower start level  and  during workouts  they on the other side seem to no be able to  use O2  as well (  respectively  we see a much lower performance so  SmO2  seem to  drop lower.
 
So lower  than   " normal resting SmO2  levels.  
 and   higher  SmO2  in " all out loads ) than  if  recovered.

 how would I know if they were like your 100 mile runner with a larger MB content, or someone who has a utilisation problem perhaps due to a lack of mitochondria? Can a 5-1-5 assessment distinguish the difference?


The 100 miler  seem to have  high SmO2 levels  due to high  O2Mb  and the " inability" under  " normal running loads  to really drop his pO2   far  enough down  so that he  as well will use O2  from Mb.
In an ironman  triathlon  we may see the same trend in running
In a  short distance  olympic  triathlete  it may be different  due to the different  intensity  they will show in running. 
 Sub 3 min / km verusus   above  4 min / km in an ironman  and even slower.
 So  an  olympic  distance  triathlon  often shows a lower resting SmO2  and a  much higher amplitude in SmO2  from start  of a 5/1/5  to the end load   than  the  ultra distance  runner. The  " delivery systems" in the   olympic   triathlete may be similar good but the  O2Mb   is  most likely on a lower level ,  as well possibly  due to  a lower   overall %  of STF  fibers  and a higher FTF  a  fiber  content due to the intensities  and duration they have different.
CraigMahony

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 #33 
Thanks for your help Juerg.
Kirill

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 #34 
 If  we look at some  NIRS  example we showed  from 100 mile runners  we see that  they have a very high SmO2  and minimal change,  even if they  go all out. They as well show an  incredibly good  and high tHb trend in recovered  situation.


Usually write the more desaturation the better. And here not absolutely so.

See this research
http://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000062

Methods Eight male runners (, 60.9± 4.6 mL·kg−1·min−1) performed an incremental running test on a treadmill. OxyHb/Mb levels of the vastus lateralis during maximal running were measured by near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS). Muscle fibre composition of the vastus lateralis was determined from muscle biopsy samples from the same region measured by NIRS, and the fibre types were classified as type I, type IIa, or type IIb fibres using traditional pH-sensitive ATPase staining. Type I and type IIa fibres together were defined as oxidative fibres.

Results OxyHb/Mb levels during running were lowest at exhaustion in all participants. OxyHb/Mb levels at exhaustion were positively correlated with the percentages of type I fibres (r=0.755, p<0.05) and oxidative fibres (r=0.944, p<0.01).



bmjosem-2015-November-1-1--F2.large.jpg

juergfeldmann

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 #35 
Again a nice feedback 
 Here the conclusion  of the study:

Conclusions We conclude that higher oxyHb/Mb levels at exhaustion during maximal running are correlated with a higher percentage of oxidative fibres, indicating the potential importance of oxidative fibres in the maintenance of oxyHb/Mb levels during maximal running. Additionally, muscle fibre composition could be non-invasively estimated from oxyHb/Mb levels during maximal running tests in runners.

Remember  that SmO2  %  is the  %  of  oxyHb/Mb  to the  tHb. 
So a nice  confirmation of what we  argued     since  many years. 
 Now  what  they do not argue  yet is  why the  SO2  % is  a high and we believe, that  OxyHb is used  so  higher  deoxyHb but the  high content of the Oxidative fibers on Mb   and the  lack of  deoxygenation of  Mb  due to the  shape of the  O2 disscurve  will keep the  SmO2  %  high. Reason: If we   create  an occlusion in ths ultra runners we still can deoxygenate very low  to zero  due to the  forced  drop in pO2   with occlusion  and we reach the critical  O2  disscurve level where O2  has  be released  as a  survival  situation from Mb  as well. This  extreme pO2   situation can  rarely be reached under  all out  loads in this athletes.


Additionally, muscle fibre composition could be non-invasively estimated from oxyHb/Mb levels during maximal running tests in runners.

Sure look back in the Fact- canada  forum and  on here, where we  argue, that we can noninvasive  see  NIRS patterns  depending n the  SmO2  tHb reaction during loads  and at rest. An easy  way is  to do this  on scoliosis patients  as we know the  fiber composition n the concave  and the convex  side. 

Thanks  for this feedback  again as it is very pleasing to see now more and more  studies   coming out  confirming the value  and the  ideas we  try to integrate into  the  average  coach  and athlete  out  there with a very affordable  and  easy to use  equipment. 

There are  groups  out there in Europe  who work hard  in practical application and software  development  and on  developing a   seminar  set and schooling  for this future direction.
 Keep  your yes  open   for   this new directions.
  
juergfeldmann

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 #36 
And  an add on:

Usually write the more desaturation the better. And here not absolutely so.


If  we talk about physiological  training  and guidance,  we may have to learn , that there is not a better  or  worse, but rather an needed or  no needed  situation of   utilization  to  a lower or less low level. It  all depends on the physiological  demand  and the   need  for  " survival " and not  on better or  wise,  but on  physiologically  created specificity.
Kirill

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 #37 
I personally consider the data on low desaturation simply as the tip of the iceberg. 40-50-60 kilogram runner after many years of training has developed extraordinary delivery system, which can not reach the levels where he desaturates. I wrote about this above, and here are the studies where my idea is visually illustrated.

he runner can use only ~30% of his transport potential, but this does not mean that he can not go to the deepest desaturation if, for example, he goes into cycling and hypertrophies quadriceps. If hypertrophies to such an extent that it will extract all oxygen

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23764870_Pattern_of_deoxyHb_Mb_during_ramp_cycle_exercise_Influence_of_aerobic_fitness_status

The work rate corresponding to c/d (i.e.50% of the amplitude of the deoxy[Hb + Mb] response) was the only parameter of the sigmoid that differed significantly between cyclists (57.9 ± 4.4% and 60.1 ± 4.1%peakP in the relative and ramp25, respectively) and PAstudents (49.6 ± 4.2% and 48.2 ± 5.1%peakP, respectively), indicating a rightward shift of the sigmoid in the cyclists. These results suggest a change in the time course of C(a–v)O2 as a function of aerobic fitness status.

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juergfeldmann

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 #38 
Completely agree and nothing  new   since Dal monte  we know that in 1968. There are different demands in runners , swimmer  cyclist and so on  and depending on the demands  we have different limiters  and in runners the limiter is the ability  to desaturate in his particular  sport  due to the great delivery   systems  and mitochondrial density  and the    limiter is  the  ability  to  drop pO2  so low  that we use  O2  from Mb. In cycling  for example   we  can load  individual muscles  can show lower  Po2   like for example in VL  but   much less  for example in VM. so  easy  to desaturate  in VL  for many it is hard   even for cyclist    for  VM  due to the knee   angel position. 
And even in cycling we have  some very intriguing difference in VL  desaturation ability between MTB  and  road  cyclist  for  example and I look  forward  to  future  papers  confirming our internal findings.
In running we have some intriguing difference between " world  record  holder  running   records  based on a planned  and timed  idea  verusus  olympic  gold medal  or  champion ship winners   winning a race  based on " irregular " race situation.

Look  Farah  and look  former   runners like  Dave Bedford  , Mamede who where  able to run  incredible regular  world  records  but barely ever  won champion ships  , where  the  pace  was irregular.  This  discussion here  will give  you some hints  how  NIRS  will be different in this 2  types  of runners.  As well it will  sshed  some light s on how we   adress this  differences in physiologcial guided  wokrouts  whetehr it is in endurnace sport opr in rehab or in  strnegth discipline.
 It is  all about  muscle fiber  stimulation, intra muscular coordination and finally efficiency  of the intermuscular coordination. 


So  thnaks  again  for   shwoing  the rwades  the  actula  interstsing stduies we all lovee to read  and many are  veyr popular in that field  and the  abiltiy to  show more an dmore  hwo NIRS is the tool fo the furtue.
 The key  for many si   not  o  to apply it   live  and  on the otehr side start to  try out  how  you can  stimulate certian target ideas.
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