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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
I like to move this practical application into the strength section.
Delta  shoulder press.
Goal  isolated  shoulder press  with  stable   body position  from 90 degree  abduction to  full extension ( elevation.   see picture
 Load. Goal   as fast as possible deoxygenation to the lowest   level possible..
 Recovery  time  to full optimal " super compensation"
 Set number  end  as soon we  can't  deoxygenate  anymore down to the lowest  level reached in this workout. +- 5 %  SmO2  change:
or  lack  of re-oxygenate back to baseline  +- 5 %^  SmO2

This  was done in a  set of  different exercises.
 Moxy  was fixed on delta pars  acromialis  and  one   on the  vastus lateralis  of the leg. Screen  with MOXY feedback  was visually available for  full motivation of the load.

 Here first a  section with three exercises  , where one  was the section with the delta  muscle.
smo2  L and a  all.jpg

Dark green  leg muscle   light green different arm  muscles  workouts.
 The  last section from 900 up  = D  was the exercise  as discussed  above.
 So lets have a closer  look  on tHb  and SmO2  in that set.
thb smo2  delta.jpg 
What  would be the  optimal set number. ? Weights  where always the same.
  Now look below  3  different  muscle groups    with Triceps  first biceps  second  and  the discussed delta third.
 You can  incredibly see the very different muscle   contractions  quality  from the different muscles.  Where ?

 Here live  pic. first pol arm 10 july.jpg

And here  from our  interpretation program
thb smo2  arm all.jpg

When you look closely you see why   each set  ended  as it  did and what was the  criteria  we set out  to do.
 You can as well see what the limiter in each of the groups  was to keep going  and how they tried  if possible to compensate  to still keep the motion going. ?

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
So we  had  an overall view  above  on how we  can use MOXY  for   workouts  design (   load decision  , and  repetitions or  load  duration. Recovery duration  and    how many sets  of the same load.
 Now  that is the start. What you than can see live  as a personal trainer is, whether the  load you plan   is really the load on the body part you plan  or whether the client  starts  to use  other muscle groups  to support the load.
 Now    when we give a fixed  number s of reps  so the client  has a target in numbers, the  chance, that he shifts the load  to other muscles is very real and very common.
 It even happens  when  we  not  check it carefully ,  when we  try  not   to give a  res target
 Below I will like to explain it  with real love  feedback s  from MOXY we  actually have  during a workout.
 Exercise is biceps  curl in standing.

Here the  exercise.


 Moxy  on biceps  and moxy  on quadriceps.
 Goal .   maximal desaturation  on biceps.
 Sets depend  on  either failing to de-saturate of failing to super compensate.
 Duration of load  till we  can't de-saturate  anymore.
 Recovery  between  loads is   same as baseline  or highest recovery  SmO2  level.
 Client  can't see MOXY  and  will use " feeling , when he  things  that is it.
Below  SmO2  overlap    from biceps light green  and  quadriceps  dark  green There is   one  "honest" set
Which one.
 Why do we name the other one  " dishonest "  or not   specific  goal  reached.
 This does not mean it was  a good or bad  workout  , it  simply  shoes  what he  did  or not  do.
smo2  overlapp bi  qaud.jpg

2 things  we learn.
1. The same  load  30 kg is  always used, but you can see it  is   the same weight but towards the end he uses  different energy than  from the biceps  to actually keep it going.
2. The NIRS info shows an end of the biceps  load, but if  I give a target  number or  wattage  or time we  may  shift the    workload onto  muscles, which still can mimic the same   load is lifted  with the biceps  , when in fact it is not..
 So when we  use a  NIRS  on a  calf  muscle, than look in that  nirs  trend, when we  have  a Break point or  what ever than this may be locally  true  but we may   keep pushing with other  possible muscles  for that activity  and the  lactate values, which will change therefor   are not in agreement  with the  NIRS trend in that  one muscle.
 So lets look at this closer.

biceps  1 thb smo2.jpg 
Above you see the first  biceps  load. The red  section shows  where  and when ( 20 seconds) the biceps really reached  its lowest   possible  SmO2  level. Than   he would have to stop, but as you can see the tHb  does not drop as a sign of an  occlusion outflow. , It just  seem to be less occluded. In fact  he seem to have muscle tension for another 10 seconds, than we see  an occlusion outflow as a  sign of a  relaxation of muscle tension..
 So did  he  simply  had  still tension or  did  he  released  some  of the tension  but kept going. If  he kept  going how was he able to do this.
 Now lets' look  the  picture  again  from SmO2 look first set  by about  800 time  scale . Look at  quadriceps.
  what can you see ?  what  has happend for the last  10 seconds ?

biceps  wiht  quad  help same load.jpg 
 Now look the overall SmO2 trend in the quad  and what   does that possibly mean over the  5  sets.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Here is a practical   session I  do  with my  three  grade  12 students   for preparation  for their  university  direction.
 Their  task is  to find  three if possible   trends  for  the suggested  options  we may see. Small play  for     regular readers  to   practice  practical interpretations. Remember you can see that easy live  once you are  used  and  as a personal  coach  can make  just than the decision  what you like to achieve  with this specific  exercise. Have  fun. Add on question:
Why did  we decided  to finsih  of  each of the three loads.
 Explain  and justify.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
" Recovery"   changes    from beginners  to  advanced  to  extreme  trained   muscles and vica verca.

 Recovery  reactions  can be used    to follow up on the   as  the words    states  recovery    situation of  an athlete.
. After  a  set of    weeks  of training  you will be able to create a very individual recovery   picture  from many of your  athletes  and or muscle  chains.

  Below I like to try  to explain  what I  mean.   This  picture  will  often show up in  2  cases.
  a)  an untrained   muscle  when we start a  program.
 B) a muscle  still not recovered  from a  workout  a  day or more    ago.
Just look  at SmO2    from each load

thb smo2  Tri.jpg

Now  after a   physiological proper adaptation  time  we  will see the picture  below.

  july 6 thb smo2  bi tri del.jpg 

Again look  at SmO2  and there is one muscle  who already    is somewhat  ahead  with adaptation  ? Which one ?  Or in case of  a top athlete  is   closer of being recovered ?
 Now     for  A  and B  the  lats stage  we will see is :
 see below

arm leg smo2  all 3 july.jpg 

 The recovery times  where  always  based on SmO2  reaction. So after  a load with   maximal deoxygenation the athlete  had  to wait, till recovery  SmO2  would  not  climb  anymore higher  and after 10 - 15  second stable SmO2  or  after  drop of SmO2  from max the next load  had  to start.
   When we look form a practical point of  view the coaches have  three (  most likely  more  choices ) .
 The classical  ideas   build into  MOXY feedback.
 Recovery   options :
 1. Incomplete recovery  so start the next  set  before  your  SmO2  is  up on baseline.
2. Complete recovery  so start   your  load d when SmO2  is back on base lone
3.  "Super compensation "or perhaps better    overshoot of SmO2    so when SmO2  recovers  to its  highest point.
  Now  beginners  and  overload    or not optimal recovered athletes    do not show  an overshoot reaction.


Development Team Member
Posts: 168

Hi, I'll use this image that I pulled from The Essentials of S & C, I think 3rd Edition to start: 

Rep Max Continuum & tHb Reactions.png 
The idea that I'm hoping to open for some discussion:

1. There's always a goal stimulation per workout and/or per workout cycle, as per above table.

2 .Without monitoring the limb muscle reactions, the coach generally uses tables such as above for planning and controlling load, reload & volume. Working from experience with some guess & hope.

3. With MOXY NIRS monitoring of the limb muscle, is it reasonable to think we can use the tHb reactions to guide the exercisers to stimulate in line with such Rep Max Goals as those above ?  

If maybe yes to #3.

Is the understanding of tHb reactions to loading general enough to guide exercisers to the correct stimulation ? 

Strength loading = tHb down
Hypertrophy loading = tHb up 
Endurance loading = tHb flattening 



Development Team Member
Posts: 1,501
One option may be as well  tHb  flat as in arterial occlusion.
 I use  as I think I  showed  somewhere already   the  quality of  muscle contraction in highly explosive  sports and athletes.
 good   explosivity tHb  flat as immediate  art occlusion. they start to fatigue  you see first tHb  up and than  flat   Why.
 If they should stop you see  tHb  down   than  perhaps still up  and   flat or no  flat  or no up at all. Why ?

Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg, hi, thx for your thoughts below: 

"Good explosivity tHb flat as immediate art occlusion. They start to fatigue you see first tHb up and than flat, Why?

tHb can next go up due to less compression than is required for maintain the arterial occlusion, only enough performance remaining for venous occlusion? So sign tHb up after flat (if goal) can signal decreasing quality, if the tHb flat is the target?

If they should stop, you see tHb down than perhaps still up and flat or no flat or no up at all. Why? After stopping, tHb down can signal venous outflow because stopped. Not sure I understand the remaining options as question ?  

Development Team Member
Posts: 1,501
Fred  great .
Yes  In fact  when  people as well use a SEMG  they can easy see how they  can work together  and support the feedback in many cases.

 The  goal settings  we have  can be followed  as a feedback with NIRS or SEMG.
 So  as  Fred  answered it nicely we can see the reaction  and than decide, was that the plan or  is that the result of  what I am doing but it was not the plan really.


Development Team Member
Posts: 49
Ok... hopefully I am not posting too much but I'm very enthusiastic about learning more.

I took some of what I read in this thread and tried to apply it to my workout tonight.  I based my efforts and recoveries on the SMO2 values... I kept performing shallow leg presses (one leg at a time) until the desaturation leveled off, and I relaxed/recovered until the SMO2 level peaked and leveled off.

I intended to stop the workout once I couldn't desaturate within 5% of what I had previously, or if the recovery didn't rise to the levels previously seen but only had about an hour to workout tonight.  So I did 30 minutes with each leg.  This was my first time trying this type of workout so I did low weight and high reps.  I wasn't sure what to do once I received the low point and if I should try to continue at that point for a given length of time.

Workout details:
single leg at a time, sensor on RF, right leg performed first, approx 10 distinct desaturations for each leg, workout done on a cybex hack squat machine with no additional weight loaded, 20+ reps per effort.

left leg press.PNG  right leg press.PNG 

Attached Files
xlsx JSCHILTZ_-_Shallow_Leg_Press_1-9-17.xlsx (341.68 KB, 7 views)


Development Team Member
Posts: 1,501
Forget  for  a moment  the SmO2  look the difference   you have left  and right in tHb  what does  that mean ? Now  go back  to your  1 leg  ideas and look whether it correlates  to the findings  there.
 Than make  up  your mind  what you like to  stimulate  with    one leg workout and   with   squatting  and whether   you can do it  better in   squatting or on the bike .  Than look  why  tHb is better  guide  for   this type of ideas  than SmO2 .  Than add  ( sorry lactate users )   a  thought to it   with what workout  you may see lactate   in your sample  more likely  compared  to the other  [wink] So lactate is important  when we look at some physiological stimulation  and   if we look at  MCT  1 and MCT  4. but as well when we look at it  from an energy source  of  view.  Where do I like to have it  for certain sport at  what moment. ?  Think classical  anaerobe alacticid .

Development Team Member
Posts: 49
Ok... here we go

During the one leg squat workout the muscle contractions and strength seem to be much higher in the right leg - The THB trend seems to show what I believe to be a veinous occlusion that starts when the load starts.  Since the SMO2 value can be driven down much lower than the left leg it tells me the RF is carrying most of the load and not asking others for much help

The left leg shows a similar occlusion trend, but not with the same amplitude of the right leg.  I'm partially guessing but it could be my CO is able to overcome the weakness of the muscle contraction, but considering the SMO2 value doesn't go as low as the right leg, it could also mean I'm sharing more of the load across different muscles and spreading the blood volume around.  Either way it shows a weakness in my RF in my left leg.

The difference in the one leg pedaling workout seems to confirm - the left leg SMO2 trend is more dramatic than right leg, and the THB trends flat or down indicating a shift of blood to other areas or greater contraction force.   The right leg during pedaling doesn't show as much SMO2 drop so I think the load is carried throughout the pedal stroke by other muscles (aka workers)... the trending upward THB in the right leg during pedaling I think is just attributed to the higher CO.

Before deciding which workout is more beneficial for my cycling going forward I'd like some advice or tips regarding my above statements.  

My gut feeling is the cycling workout is better going forward because it allows the right leg to stay somewhat happy overall, but the left leg is working out its issues and imbalances.  If I do too many strength workouts like the one last night it will make things stronger, but continue the imbalances.


Development Team Member
Posts: 1,501
Really great loud  thinking. Now  some  more points.
 Less drop in SmO2  can  but not has  to  be a sign of a lower mitochondrial density.
 The mitochondrial density  is directly linked  to vascularsiation  and  therefor  the tHb  may show different  .
 So  if we look  for  a mitochondria density limitation we again have to  take  tHb in  the  equation.
 So  if  there is is NOT a   mitochondria density  problem  but SmO2  still does not drop than  look at tHb.
 We have to assume  that  CO  may  be similar  ( HR x  SV )  when you do  right or left leg  work. But look at HR  and see, whether we have  the same HR  . If not what    would be the indication for that  and how  can you confirm it.?

Development Team Member
Posts: 49
Looking at HR you can see it was higher during the left leg session.

If I was a 3rd party reviewing this data and not the person that actually performed the workout I could say the HR was attributed to my left leg being weaker.   

That may be the case, but what if the "work" was not equal?   During a cycling workout its easy to look at the wattage from a power meter, but with strength training I suppose quantifying "work" can be more difficult when using SMO2 to gauge when to start and when to recover.

The reason for my above statement is I think I was so fixated on watching the SMO2 number dropping during these efforts that I raised the speed of my reps.  So even though with a constant weight, the work performed was greater.

With regards to the mitochondria questions/comments - my learning curve has not quite got there yet... need to do some research.

Development Team Member
Posts: 94
" The mitochondrial density  is directly linked  to vascularsiation"  juergfeldmann

Mitochondria may not correlate with capillarization, especially in abnormal situations.
I think that the increased number of capillaries in the best stayer from the fact that they have the sizes of slow muscle fibers 2-4 times greater than those of untrained ones.

Similarly, in healthy people, delivery can be disconnected from consumption, especially after VT2



Development Team Member
Posts: 1,501

Mitochondria may not correlate with capillarization, especially in abnormal situations.

Absolutely agree, but than we have the  question, whether we  can discuss anything as  in most  abnormal situation it looks  different  and that's  why we may name them abnormal.

Similarly, in healthy people, delivery can be disconnected from consumption, especially after VT2
Again absolutely, that's  why we discuss since a long time the difference between delivery limitation or   and utilization limitation.
 It is often more likely  that consumption ( utilization may  be disconnected  from delivery) like in occlusion  situation  due to  muscle contraction or BFR  workouts9 Artificial occlusion )
 Now  we have no  or less delivery,but still a  great utilization for a  while.

Now  the  same  for   your option
 delivery can be disconnected from consumption,
here  are situation, where  we like  to  avoid  consumption ( utilization), but  we may still deliver.
 So basically we manipulate O2  bio availability   as we may have a specif  goal in rehab or sport in mind.

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