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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
I  am not happy  as of yet  with the discussion Mark tried  to start out, as it is a  fundamental discussion on any   training tools  or training  guidance tools  we  spend  money on. From a  simple Speed meter  to RPM  to HR  monitor  to GPS  to  power meters in biking  to stride frequency  counter in running    to  NIRS  equipment's  in the  near  future.
 Some  sports  have more options  due to the nature of the   sport  and the equipment we use, some  sports  have it more difficult  to objectively track  actual performance.
. So  Marks  point is a very crucial point.

Maybe I will put this another way.

If a cyclist wears a Moxy for each ride what meaningful metrics can be automatically extracted from the data to help track progress?

This is outside of the lab and away from any controlled protocol. Just every time they go on a training ride. 
  So I  will come back on here  for a hopefully meaningful discussion on this  topic  and  I  already  can tell you that I like to hang on the word  meaningful  much more than on the word  metrics ( Smile)  I  will use  some  real life  examples  on what I consider  meaningful guiding tools  for  workouts  / training /  activity   guidance.  The key to a  fair  and interesting dialogue  here is  to accept   the facts, that there is a fundamental difference between guiding a  workout  based on physiological feed backs  versus a  metric  based on a physical performance information  lie speed    wattage , levels  perhaps time  over a  distance  and   so on.
 Meaning full means  for me  whether the tool we use to guide a  workout really  gives us  feedback on what we  do  and  how we stress the body  and when we may have to change performance intensity  to stay in a meaningful   stimulation. So the  guide is your body  rather than the   training tool.

 Meaning full  for me  as well is the fact, that we   use activity or sport  to enhance  or  maintain health. A good  health  with  a lot  of fun during n activity will most often  give you a personal best. So  a training  tool  to guide a  workout, if  we use  one , should be usable  for any person,  form the person who lie  to   improve  after a  heart attack  or a stroke, to a person  who had an ACL  to a person, who like to run for his  60 th birthday a marathon, to the   person, who like tot walk to work  as a  health improvement rather than taking the  car  to the small group  of people  who like to  win a  gold medal   and train for that in any sport.
 A meaningful tools  is not  sport specific  nor  is it   for any  population group only. It is a tool  who  can guide  us  through some open questions  and may enhance the fun  to  learn to understand how  our  amazing physiological system  is working  and how  all  works  together  as  a team.

 This  is the  base line  for  the discussion  so  many  guiding tools  already may have lost some brownie  points  9 Smile ) I will ask tomorrow a  client of  mine  for permission to use his  case  and some of his data collection.
 Than we start we   put on the line. a TIP  versus a LT  versus  a MAXLASS, versus 220 - age or any  formula  update on this idea  , we use  FTP  or  any additional version on this  like for running  and we may use  some other ideas  where I need your  help. We  will  go thru the zoning  or  simply through the options the tools  will give us  and than we start to develop a meaning full training  guided  outside    with this tools.  If you have any case  study  you did   you than  come an add this to our discussion.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Okay  here just before we  go  to bed  let's  throw  up the first challenge on the meaningful  use of  any current  training  equipment tools  or devices we  discussed  above.

 Mark's  first limitation is   as followed.

1.This is outside of the lab and away from any controlled protocol. Just every time they go on a training ride.  

Now the second is  that we do NOT limit this ideas  for one   specific  sport ,as if it is a physiological tool  or  better a meaningful tool , that it has  to stand  up to the challenge , that it  can be used in any  endurance  activity at least , better is   when it a actually can be used  in any   activity, where doing nothing is included in the activity  and by doing nothing I mean no  physical movements  just for example sitting at home.

2. Meaningful use  of the tool in any  endurance activity.

So here  is the list  of   ideas we all know  and have  .
 -HR  controlled workouts  based on  a)  formula 0 b ) real maximal  all out test  to find  M
 Peak HR ( Max  HR)
- VO2  max test  and than  intensities based on  5  of VO2  max  using  HR  or  performance or a portable VO2  equipment. so we can use it outside away  from controlled protocols.
- Lactate  ideas  either  a  LT test or a MAXLASS test using  either  a  formula  and  HR  and performance  to guide  or a portable lactate analyzer for outside  assessments  during the ride.
-performance ideas  like FTP  or  for  running 30 min  and than using a formula   to either guide  by  HR  or  %  of  FTP or running speed so we need    something to  control performance  or again HR guided.-
- trend of  oxygenation situation  and blood flow reactions  something like  a portamon or MOXY  which  is used  either with a  watch  combined  with HR  or directly  over a 75  %  tablets  with a graph or the new  Garmin watch  with a Graph or SmO2  numbers  and tHb.
  So here meaningful for me  would be, that I have client  who uses  different endurance  activity to stay  healthy  us  form a  75  year old person to a cardiac rehab  person to an MS client  to a   dedicated  father   or mother who likes  to challenge  herself  for  a marathon  or a  world  ski loppet or  a Grand Fondo.  to a  word  class   marathon runner  or   Grand tour  cyclist.

 All have the same in common  just on different levels. They need  to  use  energy to perform  on their individual level  and have to have a feedback to  see  whether they   load the intensity  so they  actually can improve on their  current limitation to  improve their persons performance ability.

 So here a  list  suggestion of the sports  we look for a meaningful tool  for  feedback or information in the field  away  form the lab.
 Please  add an additional endurance sports  you like to see, whether the different options we  have  can be used.

1. Walking
2. Running.
3. Ski touring
 4. Cross country skiing
5. Skating ( speed skating  for our  Dutch  fans )
6. Inline skating  for  the many inline  skaters in Europe
 7. Rowing  and I add kayaking at the same time.( Flat water  and   wild water.)
8. Cycling  any  cycling  sport  form MTB  to  cycle  cross to  Road cycling and  BMX
please add ore if I forgot your favorite  endurance activity.

Goal : Come back  with a list of  tools  you  may  use  to  have a meaningful control   during your  workout.
 The most meaningful control most likely is  your body feeling  so no tool needed, but if you add a tool   write behind each for the sports  what you  could us  or will use.

 Next  up will be a case  , where all the above  are options  for  endurance  sport  and now  our  client   will come  and ask us  for advice  on what to buy so he can control the  limitation he  has  during his endurance activities.

 Now  remember it has to work  for the cardiac  client in rehab as well as  for the  top athlete  planning to go  to RIO.
  We  may have a lot  of  fun on this  challenge ?

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Okay  next step here in our friendly challenge.
 I offer a case  and than   the different coaches using  interesting different ideas we  ail may have used or still use   offer a meaningful workout  as  suggested  by Mark.
 So if you  are a  cycling  fan you offer  for our  case a  meaningful cycling workout  with the tools  available  for  you  . If you are a  cross country  coach  you do the same  and so on.
 My challenge  will be  that I  take  on all the offered  endurance  activity  as I postulate, that  with NIRS /MOXY it does not matter whether you  have a  beginner , a rehab  person or a  world class athlete  and it does not matter  what activity  they do as long we  workout in their chosen  sport  or  activity. Reason . It is  all about  energy supply  and demand in the specific  activity the person like to workout.

 If you do not like the  case  athlete  I suggest you can come up  with  your own one  and we  can  discuss through both cases.

 Case  person  for  our  small challenge.

64  year old  male  ,175  cm tall, 88 kg  weight. Always active  but never specific  in performance sport. Likes  any  movement    but mainly  hiking in the summer , snow shoeing in the winter. Due  to some hip  discomfort  he started  to  do   some cycling now  and as all good Canadians  he still like s to skate  with his grand  son.
He has  a family history  of   hear attacks    as one of his brothers  died  with 54  and he  had  some  angina  but    no  intervention   and has  nitro  just in case, which he  never used  as  till now.

He  understand  that he  has  to do some  changes  and needs  some help.

His  basic   simple to assess  bio  markers  are.
 BP  90 / 130 +
RH in back position 74+-  in standing normally 83 +-
Blood values  are decent  with a  slightly  on the higher side   Cholesterol. He  has a decent  diet  perhaps   can improve in avoiding  seat drinks  and replace  with  more  water.
He  had in his  Fam doctors  office  lats time  a BP  of  90 / 150  and a  HR in sitting of  89 +. So  the doctor  suggested  beta-blocker  but I  talk  with the Fam  doctor  and we agreed  on a trial  (  6 month ago  was this )  to  see what happens  with some  changes.
 Reason. I  believe  ( and confirmed  later  with Physio flow )  that he has a very   small SV. Your know  now  why  and how you do not  need always a physio flow ). So  to maintain the needed CO  for  central BP  he needs his  high HR. By giving him a beta blocker  we  take only the  CO  down  and therefore  he  will feel very   bad  and  of  minimal energy . The high HR is  not great  but  can  be worked  on. by improvement  SV.
  There  are some more feedback  on this person,  but  this  is  possible already  a lot  ore than many coaches will  perhaps  need or use.

 So  we have one big  advantage.
 We  know he is not in great  shape   cardio vascular. ( possible limitation in CO  due to small SV),
 we know  he does not due  a lot  either so possible limitation in  vascularisation  and  mitochondria density.
 We have no information as of yet on his respiratory  system.

 Now  he   like  to invest   3  - 4  times a week  approx  60 +-  minutes  .

He  chooses  walking as the start  idea  as it is  easy to do no money investment on too much equipment  and he can do it by starting at his  house. In the summer he likes to switch to biking.
 So if you hate  walking you simply skip the winter  and assume it is now start to cycling season.

He  has a  simple HR monitor  form years  ago  and he  has a cheap    basic  SpO2  sensor  from his  brother  just has to change the batteries.
  Now  to just start out.
 He really needs nothing other than  going 4  x  / week  for a walk . It nearly does not matter  the intensity  at first  and he will make progress.  No matter whether he follows  any  so called smart ideas including our  MOXY  guided  ideas. This is  case is a winner  with some small limitation.  but he will make progress in all the different systems.
  But we like to  give him  a little bit more  of  an support  by using  activity to  teach him  a closer look  at how   the body works  and how amazing it is  to be  healthy  and that it is not  for granted.
 he seems  to be  very motivated  to do  that . so Great start  for all of us  to help  him  with  a  meaningful workout  when he is going out  for  1hour.

Now there is  some limitation in this  discussion. I have NO intention to make a monologue  out t  of  here  nor  do I response  to  emails  as I  do in all other cases.
 This is  a  friendly challenge started  with a great   and clear question by Mark  and  we  only move  meaningful forward here, when  we  do  an open  fair  discussion with  simple  clear answers. as this is a real  case  situation. So it  can be already the  end of this discussion or it  can be a real start  for  many readers  to actually get engaged   in a meaningful   way  on the   changes  and challenges  we   experience in  exercise physiology  when moving  theory into  practical applications.

closing the gap.jpg 


Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg, hi,g'morning. I'll wade in with a couple ideas:

1. Known limiter is Cardiac Output, specifically SV and assumption is limited peripheral density/ability, so:

2. To set the initial exercise load his heart rate monitor can guide him to the border of ARI - STE, so as to not "kill" the limiter(s) and possibly use a compensator to help stimulate a greater than normal SV. In this instance there is tool to monitor SpO2, so I guess respiration is the obvious choice they could use to assist stimulation of the limiter(s) ?

3. Client could start to practice easy, steady cardiac loading X deeper "resisted-type" breathing to enhance the tidal volume and possibly influence the cardiac pre/after loads? Making an increase to SV? 

4. Now this one is just thinking out load a little more and depending on the level of HR monitor the patient/client has to use, perhaps we can look for the RLX (if is truly older model) or the HRV to point the way to suitable ARI-STE load ?

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