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thigger

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 #1 
I've not been on here for a while but have been using my Moxy a fair bit - mostly for interval training on the turbo. As a result I have a fairly good idea of what's 'normal' for me - but I'm a bit confused about what I've seen today.

The session was Sufferfest's "Hell hath no fury" which is basically 2x20 with trimmings. Getting onto the bike my SmO2 was pretty much as normal (about 50%); the initial dip 'alarm phase' when I started cycling gently (to 20%) was as expected. The recovery was then fairly slow but I've seen that before so wasn't too concerned.

The first 'warmup' interval is a fairly gentle progression over 5 minutes from 70%FTP to 90%FTP and I usually see my SmO2 static or creeping slowly back down before the first rest. This time it went rapidly to 15% and then slowly sunk to ~7% which was a concern!

tHB during that interval normally slowly drops; this time it was more or less constant. Heart rate/breathing were normal; my legs felt 'dead'.

I tried about 2 minutes of the first 20 minute interval but SmO2 went as low as 4% and my legs were feeling poor so I switched to a much easier session.

I have a "top-down" explanation for this in that I did some quite hard hill running 2 days ago and my easy day yesterday was presumably insufficient rest; the question I have is how to reconcile this with the Moxy data. I'd have thought that the running would give me a utilisation problem (muscle damage etc) and I'd see a high SmO2 with attempts to compensate via delivery in tHB - what I'm seeing looks more like a delivery problem with tHB failing to shift.

I'm interested in any interpretations! I'll try to stick some graphs together to demonstrate (I'm trying to stay out of 'case studies' as I'm more interested in the general concept with this one).
bobbyjobling

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 #2 
I get this too, and for me it normally follows when the previous day I have done a very hard unstructured training/play session (Intensity Factor above 1) and poor recovery diet and sleep. It's probably fatigue of your limiter and compensator. Do you have the cvs file?
ryinc

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 #3 
I think lower smo2 values after fatigue have been discussed on forum once or twice, so not inconsistent. My guess is that the delivery system (either cardio or respiratory) not utilisation was fatigued. Perhaps heart related data could help.
juergfeldmann

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 #4 
1. What  was your FTP  on this  day ?
he first 'warmup' interval is a fairly gentle progression over 5 minutes from 70%FTP to 90%FTP
 
How  do you know  that  70 %   of  your FTP  ( when did you do  this  FTP test )  was  70 %  of  today's  FTP ?

2. I did some quite hard hill running 2 days ago
What  was your  physiological goal  besides  " hard "  on this hill runs.
 Was your goal  to  do a cardiac overload  and here a  frequency overload  or a stroke volume overload.
 or  was the  goal  to  try to  do some capillary  stimulation.
 or was the goal  to  stimulate  utilization ?  So depending oin the goal    immediately after the workout ( that's  what we do   most often ) we look  whether we  actually " fatigued " or  overloaded the target physiological system.
 So we  use  NIRS   and siometie4ms  HR  and RF in a simple set up  and  than look whether we have a muscular fatigue  a cardiac  overload  or a respiratory overload.
. Thna  the  next  training unit  which may be the next  day or  as in your case  2  days later we  review  the   situation.
 So if your  hill workout  was  a goal setting of  muscular  overload, but after the workout we see we have  cardiac overload,  than we  did not achieved  the goal  but  that does not matter  but we know , that we may have to review the next workout as it  was  possibly planned  based on a muscular overload  which did not happened.
 So we  know now , that we had a cardiac overload,now we look whether this  system recovered properly  and if  not  after calibration we may simply  ad d a very different workout  or a rest day on this new  day.


using my Moxy a fair bit - mostly for interval training on the turbo. As a result I have a fairly good idea of what's 'normal' for me - but I'm a bit confused about what I've seen today.

That is  exactly  what we  do  and  so  you  will have  your answer  when you look at  your   normal' for me   reaction..
 Summary.
a)  create a  'normal' for me
 There are  to start out  3 different  normal me reactions to make a cook book.

1. Create  a cardiac overload. Thna compare  the resting  SmO2  and tHb  HR  and RF trends  to the trend you now have  after a  cardiac overload. You than  can even find your  own   individual; recovery time  as you  check   daily  with your  calibration idea   and look how  long it  took you to have your resting NIRS trend again  with HR  RF  and performance  back to base line.

2. Create a workout  where  you only overload the respiratory system  and again  compare  with your base line  and you know , than  when you have a  performance change  due  to respiratory overload or  insufficient respiratory recovery.

3. Create a muscular overload  and do the same.
 Now  when ever  or what ever you use   for a  daily  calibration before a workout  you now see  immediately  if there is  one of the 3  above systems still in a very  " fatigued  " or insufficient  recovery stage.


 I  just  work  with a  set of  coaches on a  fun   section.
 HIIT  and MISS  We  just did yesterday an exampel  which  was hard  for  them to believe  theoretically till they  actually  could see it  live.
  HIIT in classical terms is  as the  word    explains  high intensity interval. It is  an all out  or very  high performance  and  we  have in many cases  no  clue  what  really  is getting overloaded  due  to actually  be above limitation and  what  may  be overloaded  due  to  compensatory   reaction. It is just very  hard.  Hans  Selye   explains  very nicely in his  great  work, that stress is not based on always   harder  and overloading but rather stress is , when we apply  something unknown  so it  can  actually  on a very  easy load  just very  new  for the body.
 So we can actually desaturate  with a  dropping  heart rate  and very low  load  instead  having to push uncontrolled very hard  , where all systems  or many systems  may be  overloaded.

This is a  fun  idea, when you have a cardiac  client  and you know  you can not push the  HR  higher for the moment  or  you  as well know  that his betablocker  do not allow a  high HR in the first place.
  So great discussion here  and yes  that's exactly  what  will come out   earlier than later, when coaches  and athletes start to look at closer  at the interpretations they learn on here and  than apply it for training  ideas.
thigger

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Posts: 37
 #5 
Moxy HHNF x3.png 
Top two are previous efforts, bottom one is the one I'm talking about.

thigger

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Posts: 37
 #6 
Thanks - I assumed that the moxy was telling me that delivery was limited in this case; it just went against what I was expecting. I've always considered delivery to be more 'central' and utilisation 'peripheral' in terms of fatigue but presumably that's not quite how it works.

Interestingly (given the other topic here) these were taken on VL - I'm experimenting with switching to RF for cycling; the results last night certainly closer matched my experiences running on the treadmill (with moxy on VL there) in terms of how things felt.

To answer Juerg's questions:

FTP - obviously I didn't test immediately before the session; I'm not a believer in FTP or "lactate threshold" at all, but it's a useful shorthand to let other cyclists know roughly how hard something was.

Hill session - unfortunately my job was getting in the way of structured training (>100hr week); it was just a hard run to and from work (8 hilly miles each way). As my next race is quite hilly the vague intention was muscular overload but it basically consisted of getting to work quickly and getting home quickly (PBs in both directions).

'Normal for me' - I've enclosed some shots of two 'normal for me' workouts and the one I've posted about. All with sensor on VL, doing Sufferfest 'Hell Hath No Fury'.

Thanks for everyone's input!
ryinc

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Posts: 369
 #7 
Thanks for posting the pictures - really interesting!

Just thinking out aloud (might be completely off)
  • The last ride - Sm02 is much lower but tHb also shows quite a different trend, whereas in the others it slowly decreased here it stays flat for most of the effort. My thoughts were that this could be due to:
  1. Less effective muscle compression. This might fit into the theory of muscles being fatigued, although here it seems more a trend than immediate, so this feels less likely to me.
  2. Some form of compensation mechanism for the lower than normal Sm02 values
  • At about the 12.5 minute mark, there seems to be a release of load across all three workouts. If you look at Sm02 in the last load recovery of Sm02 looks particularly sluggish - to me this seems to hint at possibly a respiratory resaturation issue on this particular day (and possibly ties into higher vasodilation, and hence possibly explains the tHb trend)?
  •  3 rides overload.png 

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