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juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
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Posts: 1,501
 #16 
Just a  short  ad on.
 Question: is it GAS that causes lowering tHb trend or something else,
I think it is impossible to say without second Moxy or/and few more experiments.


In research   there is never the word  impossible but  the  drive  to  see,what can be done as we  always  have  questions , where initially  the answers  or  the  understanding we see is  "impossible." 
 If we have one MOXY only   we  have to try to find  additional bio marker feedback's  like  HR  or RF as  the  2 very simple once  most of us  can use. 
An  additional very cheap  one is a NIRS  Puls oxymeter. Seboo  if  you email me  your   home adresse I like to  sent you a  NIRS pulse oxymeter as a thank  you for he great feedback  and information you offer to all  Forum readers. 
  here my  mail . factquestions@hotmail.com
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #17 



Okay let's see  whether I can add graphs.
 Back  to   
With the long-term picture in mind, I've noticed an interesting trend - my tHB tends to rise quite a bit over the first 5 minutes or so; then gradually falls for the rest of the race. 

Important is  to   combine  the  connection between  short term   reactions  due to different physiological reasons. We  can NOT look at the  long term , without understanding the  trends in the short term.
So  SORRY , but we  will  end up  with a  "case study"  and  I hope   readers can see why we need  to look at the   graphs  and why  certain long term trends  may completely change in case platelets use  the short term information's and than apply  it  to  an integrated physiological based  workout.


Below is the  graph  of the second  race  in HR  and SmO2  as many would use  for  guidance  and  workouts.

You can easy  see  for sure  after  time  slot 1500  that  there is a  tend in HR  up  and SmO2  up at the same  time  at least in the big  graph. To be sure we  can pick one   and look  at it closer. So let's  take  for example the  2700 - 3300  slot

hr smo2 r 2.jpg

2700 - 3300  hr  smo2  r 2.jpg 



N
ow  how  will tHb look , when we  take the HR  and SmO2  trends  form above.
 HR indicates by 2820  an increase and this  if  not  specific  manipulated  for a  targeted  workout  will indicate  an increase in O2  demand not alone because  the cardiac system itself  seems to work  harder but possible in most cases as well , because there is a higher  demand of  O2  from loco motor  muscles and here RF.
 Now  what we see here is a  drop in SmO2  as HR goes up  as a  often see indication of a  delivery limitation in this moment so  more O2  is  used , than can be delivered.
.
 Now  the increase in HR indicates an effort  from the cardiac system  to try  to   get  O2  demand  and utilization back into balance.

GAS  Alarm phase  starts  at 2820.  and than we move into the   try out  phase of homeostasis. I f it is  successful we   will see some balanced  reaction  like SmO2    get  closer to  flat  or HR may balance.
BUT it  depends  on how much  above a  possible balanced  performance we  actually  push. So  if we push  4450 watts  and have a   balanced  O2 intake   and utilization  around 320 +-  watts , than we may  have  form the beginning a  loosing  cause  and  the attempt  to  balance  will fail.

 As   we know by now  the  muscle compression and the    CO  or  any additional vasodilatation  are  working  against each other.
  So  in this case  let's look how  tHB reacts  by the same  time slot.

Below  you see tHb and SmO2 reaction and  we can see , that  the  load  creates a  muscle compression  where  tHb  is moving down indicating  for the moment a  win  for  compression against  CO  or  any  other vasodilatation  effect.
(True  we can  create  this  reaction as well over  systemic   drop in tHb  due to  protection of BP )  but in  most cases  sixths is a compression reaction picture.

2700 - 3300  thb  smo2  r 2.jpg
now some may  already see  Biased feedback but some not yet  so let's look at the biased  pcture as it is  easier  to read.


2700 - 3300  biased.jpg 

s
o what we se in this  tHb increase is  that  it is really  back  to  a  load  ( lower  performance less wattage) , which   allows  the  body  to  get rid of the compression but more  off  to get rid  of an unsustainable intensity over time as utilization outpaces the  O2  delivery . The  drop in SmO2  /tHb  and O2Hb  is  a  "time bomb"  .
 Now  we do  NOT know  in this case, whether this was an actual planned    go hard  ease of  idea  from this athlete  or whether  the physiological systems  simply    forced  this reactions.
 In a time  trial  some may choose this idea  some  may like to  stay  balanced. In a race  with  competition in cycling  we may get forced on this to be able to stay in the peleton. ( draft )

Now  if  the  above NIRS  indicates a   increase in load  and a  decrease in load  we  shoudl see this in the wattage  graph.

watt racee 1  and  2.jpg 

We see nicely  the up and  down in both races  and the interesting question where  the balance load  may be. 
 Question of FTP  or better sustainable  balanced  wattage over this  time frame

Now  just as  an add on. The  HR reactions  in this cases  may give us some feedback , whether we  may be close  to a Cardiac limitation or whether we use the cardiac system  for  compensation .How  would  we see that ?
  Now  back  to our  race  case.
 What  we know  and see, that  the initial  load ( wattage) was very big, so we  can assume that we   may see initially a  drop in  tHb  due  to  muscle compression  and  a   not  yet  or never  ability  of a  vasodilatation   over  the  cardiac system.

Now  we may  have  an increase in thB  due  to  vasodilatation  or    due to   further compression  under this high load  of  blood vessels , which than can lead  to  an out flow  problem.(  occlusion of venous  blood   out flow.

If  we have a vasodilatation than we  have  a balanced in and out  flow  and  HHb and  SmO2  may be  equal  or  we may in fact see  a higher  O2Hb if  we have short term  an overflow of  O2. 
 Some  will argue  that this does not happened  as  blood  or  O2  will go where it is needed.

 A method for assessing heterogeneity of blood flow and metabolism in
 exercising normal human muscle by near infrared spectroscopy

Ioannis Vogiatzis1,2, Helmut Habazettl,3,4, Zafeiris Louvaris1,24 , Vasileios
Andrianopoulos2, Harrieth Wagner5, Spyros Zakynthinos2 , Peter D. Wagner 5,6


It has long been understood that it is important to supply an adequate amount of oxygen to  all organs of the body for normal function. However, in addition, blood flow has to be distributed  within each organ in a manner that assures adequate availability of O2 for the metabolic needs of  each region within the organ (42). This may be especially important in the working muscles when  metabolic use of O2 is high (20) and when some muscle regions are contracting while others are less  active.

In the lungs, the concept of matching is well established, not as a mechanism for equitably  supplying all regions of the lung with O2, but rather as necessary for efficient transfer of gases  between the blood and the environment. Here it is how ventilation (VA) is distributed in relation to  blood flow (Q) that is the important concept: when VA and blood flow are distributed so that their  ratio (VA/Q) is everywhere similar, gas exchange is maximized (29). Correspondingly in the
 muscle, it is how blood flow (Q) is distributed in relation to regional metabolic rate (VO2) that is  important to overall muscle function (20). If the regional ratios of metabolic rate to muscle blood  flow (VO2/Q) are similar, all regions will be optimally supplied with O2.
However, if some regions 
 are substantially underperfused in relation to their metabolic need, muscle function may suffer,  while if other regions are overperfused in relation to metabolic need, blood flow is “wasted”.
While 
 in the lungs, many methods exist for quantifying how ventilation and blood flow are distributed (24, 62 51, 61, 67), this is not the case in the (working) muscles (41, 66).

So  the  question now is  to look  closer at the start section with the  tHb increase in question.
 If  we have  an outflow  limitation, than we will see a pooling of HHb   as  one of the reasons  why  tHb  increases (  Occlusion  picture )  and   at the moment we may  see  a " paradox " increase in SmO2  ( O2Hb )  which really is not  that paradox  when we   go  from the position , that an occlusion is not  a  great idea  for long term loads  so we will to survive  have to reduce    compression  and  try to find another team worker  / muscle  group  to help to sustain  the highest possible balanced  load  , where O2  supply and demand  may be  balanced .

To  throw  this idea  out the window  we simply look  from the start of the race  biased  feedback as  there it is is  the easiest way to look at  HHb and O2Hb trends.

bais  R 2.jpg 


Above all data  biased and we can see that the  "race "start was most likely by 600 +-
 So lets start   biased by  600  and look  the trend

What  we see it  he   tHb  drop  due  to   suggested  vasoconstriction ( muscle  compression)  and thna  the discussed in crease of tHb  due to  vasodilatation or  a  pooling  of  blood  due to outflow restriction.
 You are the  judges  and look some areas  in the increase we look (  small arrows )  what   would that mean ? 


bias  R2  start.jpg


B
elow  just  an example where we see  a tHb increase due  to ?????  what  confirms  your   thoughts ?

biased 2700  and only  increase in thB  fater laod  increse  s rrelaxation.jpg

bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
 #18 
With respect to the question of cardiac limitation or compensator:
If we had a cardiac limitation then we would see a drop of THB during semi rest periods (throughout the race) as the cardiac system is trying to maintain PB in vital system first also I think HR will tend to drift higher with time. However I also think that in a race we could also start with a cardiac limitation but then it will be a compensator due to adjustment of blood through the body.


Looking at the complete race; I think the physiological action of the initial sprint is present until the end of the race, perhaps a better "warmup" phase needs to be addressed. Prime the CO for the sprint.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #19 
Agree   and I will add some additional points  to cardiac  limitation.
  but first.  In many sports  certainly in  TT in  cycling but as well in other sports, where  for example drafting  has  some   benefit  an athlete  sometimes  may have to take the risk knowing that he  is overloading in the  hope, that somewhere down  the race  the  intensity may  slow down   at least to his  individual balanced  situation. So  SmO2  may stay  low  but balanced    but better  if  he could reloading  SmO2  to be ready  for another   intensity  burst  from the group. . This is where  the question comes in  on endurance.
 Ability to initiation a steady high  pace  or ability  to recover  very fast  after a burst. 

This  is  why we  do individual  training's , a  sport where this is  super nice  to show is  rock climbing as the next new  sport in the Olympics.
 I did a  few  month back a  demonstration for  rock climbers  with Mary Ann Kelly a  MOXY  certified  center in  California  and  Chicago , where we  showed  2  fun  direction.
 1. The  time  it needs to recover  even in bouldering after  a try of a section and the  individual difference even intra individual  between left and right arm. Forearm pump,  than how  to train this  and the respiration has a direct effect on recovery time.
  The balance  of   tHb  and  H +
\ What we know  and I  showed the research  before is .
 Cr.P  only  can reload  ( recover) if we have a free blood flow. The  feedback is over  tHb. Why  because we need O2  for recovering off  Cr.P  so no  blood flow no  O2  delivery.
 2. We need an
 "neutral " O2  disscurve  or even better a   left   trending  O2  disscurve.
 Why ?we need to be able  initially  to  move  O2  from lungs  to blood. So  you can see   that here the  trend in SmO2  recovery is the guide in a  rock  climbing  workout.
 The fun in Santa Anna  was  the name of  the  evening. B  and B
 Boldering and beer  and  there  were some very   smart and fun people there. 


One  section is  the dilemma  form  male  climbers  to understand  that the  much  " weaker "  strength  wise   girl  easy out climbs  the guys.
 Whe   you sue  MOXY live  you can  immediately see  why .
( besides  feexinility and technique )

Here   a  hint    for coaches      fixed on strength   improvements.

all about energy 1 vershonjansky.jpg




all about energy 1energy production 2.jpg


Summary  Strength  training  has  to be looked in the context  of  ability to either maintain energy  supply    or  at least   a  fast  ability  to recovery of  energy  sources.
  
Below some of Mary Anns   work  and  coaches  he    introduces  to MOXY

20130809_210631.jpg 
Below  a live feedback  during a workout  controlled   on the wall by the climber or   down  by the coach.


climbing 1.jpg 

a
nd below  the  NIRS feedback  , where  the coaches  discus  and adjust accordingly to their  goal.
This  for on the wall ideas but as well for off the wall  workouts.

A smo2  tHb all.jpg 

thigger

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 37
 #20 
Apologies; for some reason I didn't get any emails to say there were more replies!

Thanks for looking at this; it's an interesting view of what might be causing the observed pattern.

One thing to be aware of - my 920XT has a bad relationship with my Kickr so a lot (probably all) of the "rest periods" in the data are actually power data dropouts!

I'll try to explore other possibilities - perhaps trying the Moxy on a different muscle for my next race (I've established that the observed Smo2/tHb pattern is pretty standard for RF when I'm racing).
bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
 #21 
Do you use an external power meter or the internal kickr one?
I have a kickr ver1 and the power meter on this unit is unreliable as it suffer from temperature drift which is not compensated for. It could be upto 30W out and no matter how you do the spin down calibration it always drifts out. As the flywheel gets hotter it reports higher power then it is.

If you use an external independent power meter then it is all OK.

I had to use stages power meter [frown]
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #22 
I love  this  discussion  as  when you look of  any  of my replies  above  power is not needed so  who care on your power, that is a  " cycling :" disease  who creates  cycling specific  problems. As  we  all push  for wattage  we completely forget  the individual recovery of  systems  and always overload  the same  first  and the compensator additionally  to it.
 Look at  the  last 15 years  fo cardiac  and repsiratroy related problems in Pro  cycling. If we have a goal  of  5. 1 per kg   body  weight , what i9s  the  rational   in this  goal  other than  to  push  the  ratio we look  and work on that  completely   neglecting the  team approach  to actually  work all members up to  the needed level.  That's  why NIRS  works  so well in many different activities.  who  are not  fixed on  outside  objective  readings of performance but rather look at physiological reactions. My personal  screwed  up opinion  and  my  personal feeling ,m why w in cycling we run  against a  wall when we look at  NIRS interaction  and why we see this  big increase in  interest  from  all other sports  and coaches.  It is understandable  because  you look in cycling  we can predict  performance based on calculations , we  can predict fatigue  based on calculations and we  have a   zoning options  and  calculations, which lets  you give all the answers  as it is  clear  and simple  and  straight forward. And  the same wattage is  " always " the same physiological load ????
bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
 #23 
I agree Juerg, but my point was with stability of hardware only + as it was an online race the results are based on reported power by device. It was just some feedback based on my experience of equipment.

Also for a 5-1-5 assessment having a consistent power generation (not drifting up or down by 30W) would make for an easier interpretation ????
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #24 
Bobby  absolute  agree  and it is my  weakness  to not use power more consistently, as it in many cases it is very valuable  for interpretation and sometimes  even  crucial,as I will show in the Swinco  VO2 interpretation soon. 
 In fact  this is  the real advantage in  cycling coaching and would make  the combination so  very much  superior  to any other  sports  and most sports, where we  do not have the advantage of performance feedback  that accurate as we have  it in cycling.
 This is  what surprised me  since  many years, that  there is  this incredible " fear   and resistance   to at teals give it  an open look  to what NIRS  and other   physiological  feedback's could give us  in combination with  power  and why we  do not need power alone    and  high power in specific  to create   targeted  stimulation. The   whole team since over 100 years we  where searching  for feedback on O2  utilization and when  we would hit a critical intensity, where energy supply  may run out .We create  VO2  max  and LT , VT  and more,  as we had no means of a direct feedback. Now  we have this since over 15 years  and we still do not  at least  try to use  it. In fact we  degraded a direct feedback  back  to an LT idea  . Or is it  simply a business idea  to sell something ?
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #25 
Hi Juerg

I'm back from holidays, I'm not sure how I missed this email, I just got email about response to it now.

Thank You very much for your offer, I relay appreciate it. I do have small pulse oxymeter. I bought it long time ago, when I first learned about Moxy, thinking I will be able to use it instead. I don't like to use it as my model doesn't record the reading for later comparison and I have to constantly look at it, which is fine at lower loads but higher it is hard to concentrate at, all my blood is in my legs and not much of it in my brain to process the data at the same time [smile]







Just a  short  ad on.
 Question: is it GAS that causes lowering tHb trend or something else,
I think it is impossible to say without second Moxy or/and few more experiments.


In research   there is never the word  impossible but  the  drive  to  see,what can be done as we  always  have  questions , where initially  the answers  or  the  understanding we see is  "impossible." 
 If we have one MOXY only   we  have to try to find  additional bio marker feedback's  like  HR  or RF as  the  2 very simple once  most of us  can use. 
An  additional very cheap  one is a NIRS  Puls oxymeter. Seboo  if  you email me  your   home adresse I like to  sent you a  NIRS pulse oxymeter as a thank  you for he great feedback  and information you offer to all  Forum readers. 
  here my  mail . factquestions@hotmail.com
thigger

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 37
 #26 

The Kickr seems to be pretty accurate for my purposes (that is, it's definitely consistent which is the only thing you really need when training - and the times I've checked it against the crank-based PM on my "best bike" it's matched pretty well). I've heard of the issues but I guess I'm lucky!


I had a go with the Moxy on my upper arm last night (I was going for deltoid but had trouble getting it to stay there; ended up with lower deltoid and probably a bit of triceps). Interestingly, the graph wasn't that different - very blunted but the same initial dip in SmO2 (67->54) followed by a slow rise during the race (back up to 72 before the finishing push). tHb was a lot more boring with a strange dip about 5 minutes in before a rise (to 12.57) and then a nearly flat, but tiny slow decline for the rest of the race (to 12.48).

Interesting that the "non-involved" muscle has such a similar global shape; I presume that suggests the metaboreflex isn't the cause of the shape in RF.

I'll try to post up some CSV files when I have access to GoldenCheetah later.

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