Sign up Latest Topics

  Author   Comment  

Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg/Andri, hi, g'morning.

I pulled an image/PP slide from an earlier post and hope you may elaborate further on this. The suggestions are:

ARI: no limiter loading
STEI: Limiter is loaded/over reached
FEI: compensator reacting/loading/overloading
HIT: to fast to overload limiters

Please share a little info that brought you guys to this point

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: image.jpg, Views: 36, Size: 118.48 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Fred, great  input  and I will spent some    time on the   discussion  to your point  as it is  one of the many  differences  we   have  compared  to what we did in the past. So please  give me  some time  to    try to sort the  discussion towards a direction  all regular readers  could  chip in their own ideas  and suggestions.
 To start  out.
 We  do not  believe  that we  can calculate physiological intensities. The  body itself  will tell us, how hard or easy a load is  at a  current  day or time  and  therefor   " zones" will overlap   and interact  with each other.
 As in the past we  had no   choice  to see  physiological reactions live  as they occurred  we simply   used a calculator  and a performance to decide, where the  body had  to react accordingly to out  suggestion. We all know that this is  not the case, but we  all still desperately hang on this  idea, as it is  simple  clear  and avoids discussion  as there is  nothing to discuss on  how much 80 %  of 200 watts  suppose to be.
so we  try t therefor  to   find a better  ( not optimal  solution )  to what we  learned  from great brains    who developed the ideas  about    close to 100 years  ago.
 It may be fair to say , that we may have made some  progress in technology to fond  some   more information on how  we  create  energy and how it is used  as we go along.
 So we  tried  to simplify it as well and created  three  ideas  on how to assess performance physiologically here  to start out the three ideas (   development always in progress. )

 Now in this three assessments, which as well are three  ideas of workouts  we  have some   ideas of   how to find a  repeatable intensity  and how to  assess it as we start a workout.
 So here  the direction your  question may  go to.

rip sip tip.jpg

ARI SATEI  FEI  HI  explanation.jpg

ARI SATEI  FEI  HI  explanation.jpgtip rip sip and ari stei fei.jpg


Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg yes, thanks, that's great! I'll look forward to checking back in to see further discussion(s) along this interesting topic.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Fred  sorry long overdue   respond on this topic
 Let's start with the ARI or  active recovery intensity.
 I may sound  more  semantic    but for us it is important to try  not to confuse  currentn existing "zoning" ideas  with what we try to  use.
 Zoning's,  depending on  origin of the ideas ,  are  nice  and clear  and no questions to ask  training ideas ,based on a  calculation of  a test system.
 Or  some readers may give  a feedback on the  definition of their zoning ideas.
Intensities,  as we define  them, are intensities  in the way of  physiological feed backs, where we know, what we may push  to the limit or  what system may kick in as compensator. For this we do not use a  physical information like speed  or  levels on a  cross trainer  or wattage on a bike or rowing erg. We  use this  for  some  control on change in performance  at certain physiological challenges.

Okay  more  clear.
ARI  is an intensity  ( we can use feed backs  like  speed, wattage,  as physical feed backs  and great objective  information on performance )  and we combine  physical feed backs  with  bio markers.
 Bio markers  are feedback information  from the body. Depending on budget  and options  we can go  from very simple bio markers  where we use  zero equipment  other than a  watch or not even that to more  direct technological equipment like heart rate monitor, respiratory  rate feedback like  many new  ideas we have this  days  like bio harness,   and  shirts  with build in  feed backs  of HR  and RF  to  more sophisticated  feed backs  like Capnometer ( Emma)  or SpO2  sensors  and MOXY  to  very  nice  top notch live feedbacs, like physio flow,  higher tech NIRS  for  Brain oxygenation options  and portable  VO2  like the K42 b.
 So first and example of  an ARI intensity control over  no equipment .
 We have clients, they simple  can't  nor wont to invest in any equipment, but still like to have a  individual training program.
 So their idea is  to walk or jog. We  do a MOXY simple test  and most often outside, where they get a  certain task to do. So they pick up a MOXY and  an Emma (  capnometer)  and a HR monitor. and  an instruction on what they will do. They  learn in 2 minutes how to mount the MOXY  or MOXY's  and than   how to start the equipment  and they go out  and  make their own assessment  and bring the MOXY's back , where\we than analyze the information an give them the feedback  for their  walk and or run.
 Example. They have a loop they walk or jog 2- 4  x  per week  of a  duration of  30 - 60 min.
 Now  they start , if it is a walk, to walk and if it is a jog  to jog.* they should not change  for walk to jog in the same assessment ( most know  why ) Their task is  to try whether they can  walk  or jog with trying to breath  on 8 steps ( each step counts [wink]  in  and  8 steps out. They have to be able to do it  for 5 min  and the speed of  walk or  jog  has to be adjusted  so they can to that task.
 Whether they fail or not  does not matter . If they can do it for 5 min it is great if not that is great as well.( They just have to tell us the time  but often MOXY  will tell us this anyway.)Than they go to a speed, where they can do 6 in 6  out  for 5 min  than to 4/4  than 3/3  than 2/2  and sometimes  1/1. Than we get back  MOXY feedback HR  RF  and NIRS  as well as  EtCO2.
 If we  have a client we know that there are respiratory  problems we give a SpO2  sensor instead a HR monitor  and see pulse rate there  but as well SpO2.
 Now the fun starts. in each of this tasks  we look at the combination of HR ,  EtCO2 , MOXY feedback  and sometimes  SpO2.
 The respiratory frequency is given by the  assignment. What sounds complex is for the  client  really  not  that  complex. They  simply walk or jog  and count the RF  and that's it. We  search  theoretical for all  different intensities like ARI  , STEI  , FEI  and HEI. Now you already, as a regular reader, can see what we look for. We  like  for example to aim for ARI.
We look  for normocapnia   and lowest HR, and we look  for SmO2  stable or   increasing as well as an increase in tHb  or  flat tHb  after an increase.
 Yes good point. tHb  can increase as a sign of a venous occlusion  and can be flat as a sign of an arterial occlusion. First  this is super   rare in any endurance sport. Venous occlusion is possible  and yes  arterial occlusion is possible . In track  cycling we see that  sometimes  at the start or in rowing .
 Later we can show  what that may create as a  result  later down the race  .
Now,  if you are still not sure ,you will simply after each task  8/8  or  after 6/6/  stop  for one minute. You know by now  why. Here you can see, whether it was  an occlusion or  an actual increase.
 True you  may see  an increase in tHb as well due to hypercapnia,  which may be the case  at 8/8 so we  will see a vasodilatation, ( if it overrules the compression.) now  how do you know  whether it is  overruled . Yess you have the non-involved  muscle  and if it is a hpercapnia  in the system than we  have a vasodilatation in the system  and you see in non-involved  muscle an increase in tHb  but perhaps not in the involved  due to  muscle compression overruling.

 Now you are getting better as I already see the question . Well tHb  up  so it could be a simple increase due to CO  ( cardiac out put  and vascularisation) True  but how do you make a difference between  this  tHb increase  and the hypercapnia   tHb increase ???
 Yesss.  if it is a  cardiac output  increases  which overrules the  muscular compression  than  we as well have an increase in SmO2 as we load more  blood in the area,  but we as well deliver more than we  need  for that particular speed.
 If it is a hypercapnic  increase in tHb  than we shift the O2  diss curve to the ????? yes  and as  such the SmO2  will ??????
 The first  5 right answers sent to me under you will get a free SpO2  senor  and  3 free explanations of your assessment including  feedback on your specific question.
Now in ARI  you will have an  increase or an increase to  stable SmO2, you will see an increase  to flat tHb  and you will see that with the  most economical  HR  compared to  steps you made as well you will be normocpanic  and  so we have as we count  RF per step combination  and this is , where we than build up the walking or  jogging program.
 How  I  know  where to  actively recover? I know  for the other steps  the EtCO2  information  and step count  and therefore  can now plan  any intervention  or stimulation I like to have   and like to target.
 Fred  already was  some steps  ahead on his own. You can with or without  Spiro tiger now  create hypoxic hypercapnic  workouts , for example to stimulate EPO  production. Or you can go and  create a  more right ventricular  load  . or you can go    an plan a more left ventricular load , or you can go  and  create a SV   improvement workout  and this all in a  combination  of a speed  in the ARI . The speed   can be given as a GPS or  without any equipment simply  with time makers  on this loop. We have a 5 km loop in our small town and I made 250 m markers all around  so  clients  can use this to have their performance plus minus  controlled , when they go out  for a task. It is  really simple  and it works  with any motivated  client,  who puts the time in. The reaction is that they have meaning in their workout  and fun  and see  with  minimal  time investment  nice progress. In the winter we do this in the soccer indoor arena  or on a treadmill. Elderly people  or people who like to walk in a group  prefer this facility. The fun part is, that I can have a top athlete  walking with his grandmother  and still is doing a hard  workout  for  what is planned for him.  and his grandmother is walking on his side  doing her  own workout  with a very different physiological stimulus.
 The Seattle cycling seminar   people  may remember the 100 watt load we  had  and we  created a  stimulus  higher than the 450 watts  , when looking at SmO2 fact D  had to quit  after 2 - 3 minutes.
Fred hope it makes sense    and you can see what we use  for example ARI  for  base line  for recovery  and  control speed  or assessing recovery  the next day  and or progress  without always having to retest. In your facility with the big screen and moxy feedback you can even do the playing inside  and the clients  have fun  and learn live how to manipulate  the different stimuli's.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Haha  made a mistake  with the SpO2  sensores  for a price. Should have known it , that it is  no challange  for some of the regular readers.
 The first  was Samantha  Syvertson,   just  ahead of   Conrad  Stolz  and than  from Halifax  a very fast  respond  from Fred. Fred has too many SpO2  sensores  already  so I will sent him some of the  new  fast attachment  tape options  for  MOXY instead.
4th position was  Mohinder  and  fifth  one   was a person I  do not know yet Curtis Janischefski ( hmm  have to check that spelling ) .
 So where was the weak part ?. 3  of this  5  are  students  of the highschool program on   physiology  and critical  observation on what we  learn and what  we may have  to learn ??
 So thanks  for the surprising fast responses. Seems,  if something comes  for free  we are  fast  ( Smile ) And here  one of the fun part  you can use, when creating a hpoxic  hypercapnic  workout.
 Fred this is  what I  mailed  you this morning as  a list  for your clients.( remember the critical  EtCO2  level you should not overstep  resp  the SpO2  you should not  go below.What  altitude  do you  may simulate? 
Altitude and PO2.jpg


Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg, hi, yes and thank you for the emphasis to always monitor the levels (etCO2 & SpO2) when working with the physiological ideas. The feelings of load are very strong, so it's reassuring to show the client they are working within a sensible level of stimuli.

As a point of interest, we're installing the 3rd large monitor screen this weekend. This one will be directly next to the squat / pull up stand, and we look forward to using it to make the exercise quality more and more simple all the time.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Fred ,
Thanks  sounds  to be a lot of  fun in your training center for ordinary people getting the  latest options in high performance equipment  far before  actual high performance athletes  even touch this  incredible opportunity. I am always surprised  on the motivational effect when we show people  live the data's  during a workout. I can remember a  " competition" we had on biceps  curl in the European seminar, where we reached  desaturation levels  rarely seen in a workout  just because the three guys really  where pushing each other to see how  and  who  can get a full desaturation going.
 Here a  fun  story  from my education into sport science at the university in Bern Switzerland.    now  close to 40 years back. We  had the topic  : Maximal strength  and training intensity zoning " sounds familiar ???. It was the time  where Cybex  and some other  isokinetic  equipment where created  and we had the first time  live feedback on a screen on   force  and acceleration  and so on.
 The question was, why certain athletes  would make great strength improvement compared to others  despite   all worked  at the same 80 %  workload  from their 1 x  max rep  result.

In the  BOOK by Hollmann  and Hettnger ( Arbeits    and sport physiology ) was a fun study  about  this topic  and  our task was to repeat this  study.

The study was over 3 days at 2 different sport schools.
 Day one.  In both schools  16 sort students did a test to find 1 rep maximal load  for biceps. All was fixed the same how to do it.
So this was considered the 100 %  1  rep maximal force.
Day 2. The next day same time same location we  would get the result.
 The  answer  was in both schools the same.
 You guys are  either very weak  or  the equipment did not work properly. We have to reapet the test  as the other 16 students where all much stronger   and the weakest was even stronger than  your strongest here.
So both groups under the same impression where repeating the same test same set up.
 Result was immediately available  as in both schools the 1  max rep result was  somewhere between 6- 11 %  higher than the day before.

Day three. same place. The information was, that they found a flaw in the setup of the units  and  it is now all fixed  and that we have to repeat the test once more  and to avoid a further embarrassment the assistance  from the company of the equipment would run the test.
  So here both groups went again. The setup was slightly changed.
1. We could see the screen  and  on the screen was the result  from yesterdays test  from your  tryout.
2. The assistance  was a  really  cute  and sexy looking girl . She  had some specific shapes  but was very professional no smile no  reactions  just like a robot gave orders.
 So  male hormones  sometimes  think different  and  at the end of the last third  day test  when the girl look  on your biceps  and you  had to impress the increase in 1 x max rep   was another 4 - 8 % higher. This was the best strength  improvement any of us every did . We increased our  1 x  max rrep   from day one over 48  hours  by an average of 10 - 19 %.
 Not bad .


Development Team Member
Posts: 168
Juerg, hi. Good story, which brings back lots of thoughts--thanks. 

Best of all for me is watching the average exercising folks doing some pretty interesting efforts guided with the live MOXY information. It's not unusual to see the so-called 2-4 RM, 6 RM, 10 RM etc etc, worked to a much higher # of reps, as exercisers aim to better the "deoxy" performances, instead of lifting a set range of reps. 

Equally interesting is the recovery guidance, as SmO2 is climbing pretty fast and often reaches "ready-to-go" levels much sooner than the client is mentally ready-to-go.

For me it's also fun to see the clients focus on & chase down the lower deoxy levels (especially those with screened challenges to "deoxy"), BUT, I most often regard the tHb level, as the quality indicator and use it to select and validate (for me) load. We have fun with the direction of tHb reactions, and I have found that concentration on this variable can definitely enhance (basing on the client assessment, their level & need) the strength workout, via personalization, quality and effectiveness. For decades I have coached strength workouts using principles and guidelines (essentials of S & C), which I have confidence in.  But, now I see the immediate reactions to load/unload and can smile a little when looking back.   

I see some folks want some more "simple" and straightforward rules to using the MOXY... In my opinion (for what it's worth), strength & endurance coaching with the MOXY is as simple, straightforward and feedforward as anything I have used the past 20+ yrs of practice.


Previous Topic | Next Topic

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter -