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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
This is a very interesting topic, as it will be  for sure coming up in our ongoing  discussion with  how to use  SmO2 ideas.
. The "risk" of people starting to use MOXY and SmO2 tHb information is, that they try to compare where and how lactate threshold may relate to SmO2.
 Let's  make a very hard straight forward statement here:
 What if there is no such thing like lactate threshold. How can we use a new tool and try to compare it with something which simply was a great idea at the time   more than a quarter century back, when possibly the vie on lactate dramatically changed.
 What if , lactate may be a very nice guy and  really need to "survive" rather than a bad substance.
 So try to  keep thinking outside the  BOX and  do not start to compare lactate threshold or any other threshold with   SmO2.
 There is a different story   when we talk about  FTP.
 This is a physical information on a performance in watt or perhaps speed , where we have no ( None) whats how ever )physiological information  on how the  different physiological system contribute to this performance.
 What we know is, that at FTP the  Team ( systems  work  very well.
 So the key  is really to use the FTP idea and wattage and combine it with physiological information like HR, RE . SmO2  tHb and so on.
 Now we have a physical baseline combined with a physiological information. Now we can start working really individually.
 Here tow pictures on how we  use FTP and physiological markers.
 But than a nice info, how wattage alone is a  dangerous tool , as the human body is a physiological system and different influences like in this case heat can change FTP result and as such intensities.   We will discuss this for sure much more into  depth.

 Before e I show the picture a simple question to the  author of the  threshold article.
 1. The problem with training above the lactate threshold is that lactate stores are limited and alone are not sufficient for endurance races such as triathlons.  Where and how do I actually store lactate. ??

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
As we move more and more into the use of SmO2  we will see, that there are some reasons, why coaches and athlete start to be "hungry" for a  " replacement " of some myth.
Traditional classical ideas  are buckled on very great and nice theories  but lack often the ability to have some decent physiological explanations,.
. Ideas Ike lactate threshold or VO2 max  are on the "chopping block" but  as we  are used to certain  words and expression, it may be or it will take time to replace them with new nomenclature to avoid confusion.
 We may pushing here some limits but that' is always fun.
 Here a very nice article form an accepted source about lactate threshold.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Now , when we are already "hacking" on tradition, here a fun article to read and think about on VO2 max ideas.

The Great VO2 max Myth


The Great VO2 max Myth

The Great VO2 max Myth by Doctor Andrew Bosch

I often receive telephone calls from runners wanting to know if it would be possible to measure their VO2 max. My standard answer is something along the lines that it is, indeed, possible.

However, I then go on to ask why they want to have their VO2 max measured? There is usually one of two replies. Firstly, I am told, by knowing his or her VO2 max the runner will know that esoteric time that he or she is ultimately capable of running for some particular race distance, and therefore their ultimate potential as a runner. Secondly, once their VO2 max is known it will be possible to prescribe the ultimate personalized training schedule. My response to both is that knowing the VO2 max of a runner does not answer either question. It is widely believed that the VO2 max is genetically determined and unchanging and that an individual is born with either a high or low “max”. Someone with a high value has muscles that are capable of utilizing large amounts of oxygen and a cardiovascular system capable of delivering this volume of oxygen. The athlete is able to run at a maximum aerobic speed that this oxygen supply can sustain.

In this paradigm it does not appear to matter whether the runner is unfit or superbly fit, the outcome of a VO2 max test remains the same.

However, it is intuitively obvious that when fit the athlete can run much faster on the treadmill than when unfit. Thus, since VO2 max is genetically determined and does not change (in this model), VO2 max would be reached at a relatively slow running speed when a runner is unfit compared to when very fit, when a much higher speed can be reached on the treadmill.

This means that in a totally unfit world-class runner we would measure a high VO2 max (say 75 ml/kg/min or higher) at a speed of maybe 17 km/hr on the treadmill. When very fit the same athlete will reach the same VO2 max at a speed of about 24 km/hr. The problem is that such a high VO2 max is never measured at a speed of just 17 km/hr. This would be almost impossibly inefficient. The theory of a genetically set and unchanging VO2 max therefore begins to appear a little shaky.

This concept of VO2 max evolved from misinterpretation of the data of early experimental work. It was believed that as an athlete ran faster and faster during a treadmill test, the muscles needed an increasing volume of oxygen, a process, which continued until the supply of oxygen, became limiting or the ability of the muscle to utilize oxygen was exceeded.

At this point there would be no further increase in oxygen uptake. This plateau in oxygen utilization was regarded as the VO2 max of the runner. If high, then the athlete had great genetic potential. However, in addition to the problem described in the previous paragraph, half of all runners tested in exercise laboratories never have a plateau in their oxygen uptake.

Instead, the oxygen uptake is still increasing when the athlete cannot continue the test. The conventional view of VO2 max now appears to be even more suspect.

Consider a different scenario. A runner on a treadmill requires a certain amount of oxygen to run at a given speed. When the speed is increased, there is a corresponding increase in the volume of oxygen needed to run at the higher speed. The runner runs faster and faster, with corresponding increases in the oxygen required, until something other than oxygen supply to the muscle prevents any further increase in running speed. "

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Here is an  add on as a small inside view in   the daily great feed backs and discussion I get from all over the world.  Too bad that many do not discuss  this on here so we all can learn  together and improve upon many great inputs and ideas. So here to enjoy

P , thanks for your mail ,
I am somewhat behind. So to your question
"What are the focus you have going on this next phase"

1. Work that I have enough food on the table.
Meaning , that today I have to separate the young turkeys from the young chickens and the layers from the meat birds
They would start to eat each other .
Turkey's are like other birds aggressive and eat each other. So at the beginning they have a problem to survive as they have no clue how to eat and drink water so I use the chickens to actually show them how it is done , but once they are able to do it they will attack the chickens. Sounds familiar in the "human " world ?
So they have to be separated so I have food in the fall as I than will eat both Turkey's and chicken's. So just a question of survival at the end the stronger will eat the weaker.
The meat birds are bird looking for protein ,so if they do not find enough they eat the layer chickens ,so I have to separate them ,as I need the layers over the winter for fresh eggs. So in some cases you really do not kill the bird before you have all the eggs in the basket .
That just how it goes in nature.

2. In the exercise physiological world or in coaching it is pretty much the same as in the turkey and chicken house. They look at each other but are often not able to discuss, as each of them has to defend their own turf on all costs.
So instead of discussing we often see a "sending " of attachments and studies to sent something ,but say very little..
We made a huge step forward now in Europe with actually getting some people together and now hopefully release after 10 years , a software where the data collection we do and you guys did, is done in a few minutes and all is ready to be discussed,.
I sent you some samples form the Italian software as of late. The work in progress is coming to a kind of a middle ground with the knowledge that it may be obsolete after our next sets of tests.

3. MOXY and its projects suddenly has a new dynamic with many more groups and ideas coming together and there seems a clear increase of understanding, why we all can be in the same chicken house by combining all the information's and experiences we have in a meaningful way.
Once we have this sorted out we will have an option to work with physiological information and physical loading without hacking each other down but as getting ready to reviewed many common believes on the validity and or their need of adjustment..

4.Spiro Tiger will have major boost this year in game sport s like Ice hockey as it starts to be integrated in sport schools and clubs. The new software will allow coaches to see their athletes as they work out and we will add some small videos ion the software with examples on how to use it and different training options.

5. Where ever I go and where ever I had presentations in the past people always ask me , why I would tell and give all the info and case study we do away.
Well simple answer, we need all the help we can get to discuss.. We are not funded nor do we get paid from somebody to do something but say nothing.
The risk is that we step on peoples feet and we are very often wrong but the key on all of this is to have fun and move forward.
In many forums I write I have ZERO responds, despite the fact that we know how many hits we generate.
The interesting part is that I get flooded with e mails after some forum information. Why is that , why do people not discuss fair and simple on a Forum.. It is , that we can't discuss, is it that we have problems to answer simple questions. ? Is it that we are afraid to say : I do not know the answer ?

This brings us to our ongoing discussion.
I had one great answer back from a great guy . on how long it may take to warm up a finger.
Answer 5 min. Possibly an absolute correct answer.
This correct or possibly correct answer leads to a question back on hwy a resting lactate starts by 3. 5 mmol lactate .
Old answer cold fingers, when the lactate was actually taken after 5 min. and than the next lactate after 10 min was still 3.o in a very low wattage level.
This pushes the question, whether the reasoning of a cold finger will give a high lactate reading may have to be reviewed and possible other reasons could have contributed to the lactate reading so different than 1 day before.

This leads us top another open question I move around after over 1000'000 of lactate sampling.
Can we really use lactate for what we believe we can use it in sport.
Is it an information on metabolic efficiency or rather one of many simple bio markers of metabolic changes and changes in O2 delivery to the working systems.
Could it be, that lactate can increase despite an increase in pH ?
Is it possible that we have a high lactate and a high pH . Could it be that H + and P and other not yet well understood reactions may contribute to " fatigue " or better reduced performance, rather than lactate.
Could it be that a lactate curve has so many variables the the use of lactate as a means of intensity is pretty much a strange idea but impressive for the client ( Blood) and the idea, that a lactate curve would indicate a better metabolic efficiency may have to be review as it may be more a sign of O2 delivery limitation due to many different inefficiency rather than metabolic efficiency limitation.
Like every other good chicken I sent as well an attachment with some straight forward question and as I had over the last week many mails concerning this particular question.
Will MOXY replace lactate. ?
The answer is still under review. What MOXY will do is for sure enhancing any current idea all the different coaches are doing at the current time and with some open mind the use of MOXY will after a while give many answers to each of the users without the need of big discussions.
As such have fun and keep you chicken house clean. The att is a worksheet and I hope for many answers under each of the lactate graphs to get back.
Cheers Juerg

PS I liked your resting info on lactate pH and HCO3.
as well as the after load info. . I do not understand how we can see improvement based on this 2 lists from rest and after work.
What I can see as we did that in the late 1980 very often is the fact, that the highest lactate measurement not actually yields a the lowest pH value , in fact in your list the highest lactate value 19... actually showed the highest pH value.
When we looked at this situation we could see, that this athletes had a very specific ability in respiration and as such would sup[port the idea, that lactate is of no problem for the body and as long we have a balanced pH situation we can increase lactate to what ever level it is possible. This is a reason why we take a lot of care to " calibrate" the athlete and do not worry too much in calibrating a wattage trainer.
There was one guy " calibrating " the athlete and it was F from PF. That's where some may have been somewhat inpatient, but we never calibrate the respiratory situation and we never calibrate the oxygenation situation.
So how can we believe in indirect information like VO2 and lactate, when in fact many different situation can create many different physiological reactions.

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