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Larry Flessland

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 38

Here are the results from some interval training I was doing on the treadmill.   My normal running pace is  a 10 minute mile (6mph).  So I set the treadmill to 4mph for the resting and 7mph for the working interval.  Each interval is 2 minutes long for a total of 30 minutes.  The recovery interval starts at 30 minutes and is 2mph.

The sensor is placed on the upper thigh of the left leg over vastus lateralis muscle.

You can see the SmO2 drop to around 30 during each working interval and come back to around 50 for each resting interval.  When starting with the resting interval at time 0.00 minutes you can see the SmO2 dropped lower (mid 30’s) than the other resting intervals.  Maybe I wasn’t warmed up yet.    The ending recovery then went above 70.


Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 19
Awesome pattern Larry with the SmO2 data.  Were you driving the speed with the SmO2 data, or vice versa?
Larry Flessland

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 38
I just set the interval pattern on the treadmill and let it go.  During the workout I wasn’t looking at the watch (SmO2) much other than just to make sure I was getting believable numbers.
Larry Flessland

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 38

For today’s interval training I was careful when placing the sensor so I would get minimum sensor movement.  The sensor stayed in place and the data was smooth.


Sensor placement:  upper thigh on left leg over vastus lateralis muscle.


I wanted to have a higher SmO2 during the rest interval and drive SmO2 lower during the work interval.  So I changed the rest/work levels from 4/7 to 3.5/7.5 mph.

The first attachment shows the results from today.  The second attachment overlays both workouts.  You can see that muscle oxygenation during rest and work intervals is higher and lower respectively than during the first interval workout. 

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Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 19
Wow Larry - that is amazing. 
Larry Flessland

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 38

Sensor placement: upper thigh on left leg over vastus lateralis muscle.  I marked my leg with a sharpie to guide me so I place the sensor in the same location each time.


Treadmill setting rest/work levels 3.5/7.5 mph.


For the last three days I didn't do any training.  I was at Interbike expo with Roger and Stu where we did a lot of standing and not much walking around.  My legs were tired each day and even today.  But this afternoon I resumed my interval training on the treadmill.  On the graph from today (0923) you can see the range is getting wider.  I seem to be driving SmO2 lower during the work interval and it comes back higher during the rest interval.  There is a trend where the range widens as I get warmed up.  You can also see on this workout around elapsed time 25:00 minutes there is a spike when my shoe came untied and I stopped the workout temporally to tie my shoe.   I feel like I am getting stronger with the intervals.

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dawn lagergren

Development Team Member
Posts: 14
Cool graphs!  I just did a treadmill interval workout too but my watch didn't stay coupled so I couldn't drive my workout by looking at the readings like I had hoped.  Plan to repeat this workout during my marathon training-anxious to see more stuff!
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
nice data's and here some ideas , so you can start comparing with your self and have some guide lines. When you  mount a NIRS and in your case the moxy you have to make a clear anatomical  placing definition including where you place the R and  the T 9 R for receiver and T for transmitter.
 If you use the vastus lateralis than  you make a connection between SIAS and the  fibula head as one example  used since many years in placement  of NIRS.
 Than you take  Half in and place always the same way the R on that line either  R proximal on the connection line and T distal.
 The interval with a first lower drop in SmO2 is a nice example of changes in oxygenation but in this case  the question is ?
 Warm up. If not warmed up would your really  expect a lower SmO2 than if warmed up ???

Posts: 266
The warm-up issue is something that we have seen consistently and it seems to be sensible.  When the athlete is not warmed up, the heart rate is low and the blood vessels have not vasodilated.  When the muscle starts working, the demand for oxygen exceeds the supply so the SmO2 goes low.  When the athlete warms up and is still doing the same work, the supply of oxygen is higher so SmO2 is higher.
Seems to be consistent with the simple notion that SmO2 is a measure of the balance between supply and demand for oxygen in the muscle.

A good example is Dawn's intervals on the  treadmill.  The spreadsheet in the second post shows it best.  LINK
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Roger, thanks for your replay . I was already afraid, that this is one of many forums  dying after an initial hype  and some great start ideas.
So what I like to   write here down is in no way a critic on anything you guys do , but perhaps or at least I hope an eye opener. that you are all in the dilemma  between having an incredible  new tool, which finally would be a something to really change training control and intensity control to physiologically guide ideas and away or at least in combination=s with  physical information like time , watt ,  and so on.
 Here what i think where you all have still a  barrier.
 You are stuck between the great new option  ,but limited ideas on  how to use it . and the classical stuck training methods like 10 fingers 2 min and speed  or wattage.

Here a short inside view how physiological testing will change the training planning and progress..
 1. The great interval workout on here is a typical example for what I  explain above.
 We have here a fixed interval based on what.
 2 min sections Why ?
 4 and 7 mph  load  why ?
 30 min duration  why ?  Open question on warm up and cool down  (  long story for perhaps later)
 So when planning an interval why  do and how do we plan the load and the recovery. What is the goal of the interval and how  do I find out what I like to achieve?
Here some  goals and than how we find that out in a very short info as it is a 30 years work  so no chance to make it in one post  but hope to give you a hint on what is possible.
Goal of an interval workout :
1. Increase cardiac hemodynamic by stimulating SV and ejection fraction ( left ventricular stimulation. or perhaps  increasing right ventricular contraction strength, depending on the  weakness of the client.
 or limitation  of the respiratory system mainly in the  endurance speed  area due to drop in TV and increase in RF so different idea of interval.  or perhaps a limitation of the mitochondria density and vascularisation so again a different approach.
 How do I find  this limiter and who may compensate. Well that's where our physiological IPAHD assessment comes in a  unique novel assessment for the wide population and not just for  high performance athletes.
 Let's go first to the classical version in as shorty but  nasty overview.
 Classical VO2 test or classical  maximal watt  tests. What do they really provide beside the information , where your total body fails. The only thing you assess is the end stage of a collapse total system. You have no clue what system  limited the  performance first and  when other systems  had to start compensation and therefor had no chance to contribute  to the overall performance as well.
 At the end of the VO2 max test You have a maximal VO2  number now what ?
 you have  maximal wattage or speed numbers now what . True you name this 100 %  which is true on that day at that workout test. Is it true tomorrow as well?
 So even if it is true how you define now the intensity zones. True you take a calculator and take %  of 100  % suggested by statistical formulas . How physiological is that ?. True it is great for business for coaches and you do not have to think nor do you have to do any other thing as filling in a soft ware and it calculates the intensities . As long you not ask a critical question, whether this % is really individually true for any body you will sleep well and do good and who ever does not make progress is unfortunately genetically limited. So no and never a failure  by the coach as he never gets challenged  to seem whether this cookbook calculated  idea really has some merits on physiological reactions reaction of each of us.
  So finish here ranting as it  is not the point . What is the alternative?.
 Here a  super short inside view. We assess our clients physiologically . Using  Non invasive and minimal invasive ( Lactate )   equipment to find the weakest link and physiological functional and structural reactions.
 Here a level 3 (  most simple assessment ) and I only show NIRS inf not the other cardiac , respiratory and metabolic info ) which are needed to make a proper conclusion on limiter and compensator.
  This is a world class MTB guy training in Switzerland tested in Switzerland with IPAHD and now they learn how to  apply physiological info to change his weakness to a stronger  and better level. Picture 1 is level 3  picture 2 is level 2 in comparison with another world  class athlete with another limiter as you can see n the huge difference in how the  muscles react and  Pict 3 is a level 1  highest deepest level of interest to really than make an individual  program for him.

 No just very short before I go back to out interval on here  from the start ( 30 min interval 2 min each)
The level 3 is an overall information ,You have 3 traces and 3 indicator views.
 The traces are yellow for tHb  ( Blood volume indication ) and the trace purple is hB Diff as an overall indication of oxygenation or deoxygenation. These two traces and  as you can see the number is on 0 as it " calibrated' the start of the assessment, same as we would calibrate the  compu trainer. ( needs to warm up ) and here we do not like to warm up as we get an incredible amount of physiological information if we start from cold and can see how  functional and structural  reactions occur.
 What is for example in the cardiac system a functional reaction : HR  what is the structural reaction  SV or LVET.
 So we do not like to miss this as this is the ultimate information , whether the client has only structural reactions  ( beating fatser with a very low SV or has some structural abilities  to use first SV instead of  HR.
 This is very important when designing Interval workouts, as if the  client only reacts  functional and the workout only  stimulates functional we not only see no progress but  may in fact create  over time an actual problem like  cardiac problem and so on.  Lets' just shorty go back to our NIRS information.
 We can see, tHb  Yellow  stable  with a slightly increase as we go along . So no limitation  which may cause a drop in tHb. Cardiac and respiratory limitation often create  drops in tHb ( Dempsey Boutellier Spengler Noakes Connett )./ So   small indication here, that  cardiac and respiration at least seem not to be  a big limitation. To be sure we look at them specifically with the other equipment.
  Purple is Hb diff   and if dropping meaning in simple terms that he uses more O2 than he can deliver. ( Does not mean always that lactate will show up to help buffer H + ( longer story as well) . The second thing is the specific way his Hb difference reacts, which again gives us a specific indication but already an idea on  how long a load in an interval has to be for sure.
 So enough of this here but I just like to show to you , that this is not an nice theory but it is used as practical  work  in  same top athletes but daily in my office with cardiac  patients and COPD patients and simply local   folks. Every single one of  my patients uses one or the other bio feedback when working out , depending on what we like to achieve and control.

 So this assessment will help us to design workouts with feedback's like HR MOXY info  RF and sometimes  lactate during the workout and wattage or speed depending on the goal.
 So back to a practical application of the above interval.
 Here what we can try to do.
. Repeat an interval but forget the time for the moment. So we just take one physical info out  for the moment, which is time and leave you for the moment the load.
. Here what you do. Take you fastest 3 mile s time form a race. Calculate the  speed average, which will be you  upper load.
 Than the rest is  is  zero load. ( not always smart depending on limitation an d functional reaction, but as we have no physiological assessment here we  have nothing to follow through. So zero load is at least a clear info  rather than choosing any slow recovery speed. On a treadmill it is easy to do as you simple jump out  each leg on one side and leave the speed going as it is.
 So here how you do it .
 Now donn't warm up at all . Give the speed on the calculated 3  mile average speed. let's. say 8 mph or what ever you get.
 Start the treadmill.  get ready start moxy and HR and  timer. Now you jump on and run. How long . Till you feel loosing proper  running technique or feel bad like out of respiratory control a.s.o or what ever subjective info  for the moment.
 Take SmO2 at the start and  now take it at  the moment you  jump of. Take HR at start and at  jump of and look at SmO2 at jump off and a the time you deice decide to jump off.
 Now the rest of the workout is guided by time available from you and SmO2.
 So you have to start the load again, as soon SmO2 is back up on the start SmO2. Take the rest time you had and than load again  same speed. Now jump off as soon you reach the same low SmO2 . Take time and HR as usual and wait again till SmO2 is up  on the start level.  take rest time and jump on again as soon you have SmO2 start level  and jump of again as soon you reach low from first set on SmO2.
 Keep that going . How many times. As long running time is equal  or longer  you keep repetition going . As soon ruining time is  getting shorter you are finished. In the worst case scenario  you will have one repetition as the second is already shorter. or on the other side quit if you not get worse after  about 45 min.
 Than print info and we start s showing you how and what that all means. Cheers Juerg

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Okay had some comments from  another source on my claim, that  if you do interval  6 x 1 min for example with a fixed speed or time you do physiologically the same as it is the same work.  I couldn't more disagree with that statement. Yes you do calculated physical load as the same workout but  never ever physiologically . That's why 2 athletes doing the same interval with the same  physical load  will show up often with very different performance results.
 Why is my statement so clear , Because we can test it and see it , when we look outside the classical  idea of workouts, where all is based on physical performance and the  strange believe , that the human or any physiological system is like a motor , once warmed up it repeats the same performance. If a human interval workout is done every single repetition ,if based on time and speed or wattage  can in fact end up with a very different load for cardiac respiratory and  oxygenation  request.
 Instead of words I like to show you two pictures  with NIRS ( I not even show you cardiac or respiratory info's yet.)
 First is SmO2 reaction on a classical interval with fixed time and a fixed performance load.
 Picture 2 is a physiological interval with three different ideas and goals with three different intervals based on a target SmO2 , resp a target O2Hb or HHb You  come back and challenge and tell me, which one is  with a much better feedback and control on follow up changes in performance and which one is LAS Vegas style  gambling and hoping performance improves, so no questions asked, if no improvement too bad it is genetically limitation ( Smile)

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