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fitbyfred

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 #1 
Hi. Carrying over form some of Juerg's feedback from sled conditioning workouts. Am wondering how using MOXY can elucidate on the utilization pattern shown during this 5/1/5: 

PPP.jpg 

You can see how the saturation shifts over this screen from increasing to flattening to decreasing to again flattening/increasing. 

Using only 1-2 MOXYs, can we form a decent position that these later trend shifts are:

Inter/Intramuscular Challenges or De-Recruitment ?

If we can, can someone elaborate?

juergfeldmann

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 #2 
Fred great   info  and I think yes  I  did many of this observations  and than started to add  SEMG  to it to get some feedback  how  SEMG trend  would  fit   or not fit  with SmO2  and tHb  trends. . There is  an interesting connection and I wait  for a  feedback  from the open webinar  from Clint where he did  SEMG  and found  the opposite . he  states , that when SmO2   starts to get flat or  stops  dropping  he  believes  we activate  FTF  fibers  and SEMG  will go up. I never  yet   had a  feedback like that . When SmO2    stopped  dropping  increase in SEMG  stopped as well.
 When SmO2    started to increase   SEMG  dropped  and tHb  would  often  start  to get  flat after a  drop or  would drop if we had  an occlusion trend.
 When  I connected  to  helper muscle in  the chain  I often see a shift of  activity  from the main muscle to some who can do close to the same motion  but not optimal . Will explain   in a longer answer. This   trend . As a side not.   or question. How  does  FTF  fiber   maintain the ATP  needed level different than STF  fibers. ?
 Is there really a difference in how we  try to maintain ATP.  and if   does somebody have some  great research on this question. ?
Ruud_G

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 #3 
Difficult question to answer Fred. I can imagine having a Moxy on the most involved muscle, one on a muscle nearby and on a "complete non-involved" would give some indication on different recruitment. The non-involved of course in the light of a systemic reaction. Just a thought. I can't back it up
juergfeldmann

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 #4 
Ruud that is pretty much what we do   and we  simply ad  SEMG  to it so we see, whether there is a  reaction of SEMG  and tHb at the same time. We  use that  for  different sport  for  optimal positioning like  rowing, Speed skating most efficient position or in bike fitting,  as a part of physiological bike fitting.
 There are some trends in bike fitting  , mainly  pushed  by San Millan,  and using  lactate  and VO2. We  do since many years   physiological sport fitting by looking  at this different parameters.
 So we may have a  great SEMG  activity in a  specific  position and a great  power picture, but  depending on the length you may stay in this position, the  end result may be  very  bad as the SEMG activity  may be so  strong and a sign of this  is an increase in tHb due to outflow restriction and than we  create a different problem all along.
 This is where  give and take comes in.Or in other words  aerodynamic  and  max power  versus physiological most efficient  or effective position.
 A perfect aero position may limit  too much the respiratory ability and the aero advantage may be lost  due to physiological limitation.  It as  always as we  say the full package  or team approach  and not one  fits all.
fitbyfred

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 #5 
Ruud_G/Juerg, thanks for your feedback.

Same exercisers are back later in the week and we'll try repeating individually a similar sled workout with 2 MOXYs, one fixed on the VL and another on a hamstring.

This will give us possible info on the choices the exercisers are making re: inter / intra muscular activations?

Going a step further a MOXY on a much less involved muscle such as the mid-low trap may give info on the systemic compensations, if present ?

To this point I've been going forward trying to stay simple, using only 1 MOXY per exerciser. In this example I can see how 3-4 would be useful.

FBF
Ruud_G

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 #6 
Yes Fred great! First collect data from this in a consistent way. Only than you will be able to extract patterns. I made the mistake (or being too enthusiastic) to just to do workouts with the Moxy when starting. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't give me a clear understanding of the way Moxy data works (i.e. How my some parts of my physiology work) under loads that I am supposed to deliver when cycling (competing). So. I changed my testing (or say testing during training). I am now collecting very consistently workouts (MAP tests, FTP tests, TIPs, SST and FTP based workouts) based on loads I need to be able to do to find a consistent pattern of Moxy data reactions next to HR, cadence etc. data. So keeping loads the same or switching with loads based on hypotheses I have based on the things I see wrt trends. I am still collecting and soon I hope to show you some stuff here. Should be fun. Why load based? Because that's what I need to do and when I know what / when happens physiologically under these loads I can enter phase 2 and that is train those specific limiter / compensators which occur at those loads [wink] Phase 1 is challenging, but I guess Phase 2 will be even more challenging [wink]
fitbyfred

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 #7 
Juerg. Your feedback re: SEMG

"Here is an interesting connection and I wait for a feedback from the open webinar from Clint where he did SEMG and found the opposite . he states , that when SmO2 starts to get flat or stops dropping he believes we activate FTF fibers and SEMG will go up. I never yet had a feedback like that."

Are these different observations possibly associated with having different types of athletic clients and therefore different compensations ? Similar to how I rarely observe a flattening or climbing tHb trend on a mod-high but shorter loading duration.

FBF
fitbyfred

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 #8 
Ruud_G. Thanks for your feedback. Look forward to review of your individual findings.
juergfeldmann

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 #9 
Ruud  super great  and welcome in the club . You  very soon will see  based on how  you use MOXY that the combination of  an objective feedback of  performance , in your case wattage  combined  with BIO markers  in your case HR  and  NIRS feedback , we often add RF  and TV to it  will start to  explain  for you your individual; physiological reaction after  specific  workouts like  fatiguing CO  or  overloading  muscles and so on. You are already far above the Mc Donald  kitchen you  are getting  close to open your gourmet restaurant . Congratulation  and thank you so much  for putting this time in    to help  yourself  but  for many readers  to show  why we  have so much fun  with  direct feedback ideas.

We all look forward  to feedback outside  of our own restaurant  so we do not create teh impression , that we manipulate the ideas. 

To Freds  questions on different  athletes  and  reactions based on SEMG . May be  I am not sure  and  that's  where it will be great to have clints  SEMG  feedback.
 I just  even having all type of  people  never saw an increase in SEMG  when we reach a  SmO2  plateau  or     even  when we see eh  fats drip in SmO2  starts  to level out. Any testing I did  always  shows  a  reduction  of  increase in SEMG  and when SmO2  levels  out SEMG  does not increase any further  it  is flat as well  but more often will drop as a sign, that we loose  recruitment  numbers  and therefor   performance  and  possibly  as well the need  of O2  .   That  does not mean I am right  and I will have to go back  and review  many of the ideas  of  combination of SEMG  and  NIRS  as it is   nearly  10 years back  and I  made hopefully some kind  of progress  with  all the information we gather.So Time  to review  my own datas  and look  fro   mistakes  and or  mis- interpretations.  Thanks  for the  hint. Juerg
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