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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
Great  forum  and great discussions.
 Here  a short  great   section:
 The problem is the word "sustainable".  Coggan believes that humans can commence a 60min effort at this intensity and hold it there for 60min (which thus implies that no fatigue whatsoever occurs in this time), but there is evidence which suggests that most humans, even well trained cyclists, are incapable of holding this intensity for 60min without developing some fatigue which induces inefficiency (ie: less ATP per volume unit of oxygen consumed by the muscle), and thus having to either increase the VO2 slightly to maintain power which has its limits, or decrease the power slightly in order to continue at a steady VO2.  There is growing evidence that both central (nervous system) and peripheral (muscular) mechanisms contribute to this inability to maintain power at threshold for long periods of time eg: >20-30min for most people, and probably as long as 40-50min in those whom are highly endurance trained or having very high % type I fibers, such as pro cyclists and/or elite TT'ers.   I


I like the red  section ( selective  reading ) I highlighted  and  for  readers watching the latest You tube  you can see  very fast what we  mean  as  we look  for limiter  and  compensator  as  explained indirectly in the  above  section.

and thus having to either increase the VO2 slightly to maintain power which has its limits, or decrease the power slightly in order to continue at a steady VO2

 Remember  . VO2  is the end result of the whole team, but does not explain who  in the team uses  how much O2  and   how it is delivered ?
  So many reactions  and  trends  can influence the VO2  and as  such the FTP  result.
 See the   two  slides  from our    webinar.

VO2  and how we may  add some additional information to the above discussion on ' Fatigue " centrally ( delivery)  or  more  peripheral    as  tHb   reactions  and muscle compression.


vo2.jpg 


vo2 moxy.jpg 

 So you ca  have  one athlete  pushing today  and tomorrow the same FTP  but today was  another  limiter than tomorrow  depending on the physiological reactions after  today's  FTP   ride.
 Example   plasma volume expansion.
 So yes  there are delivery  limitation centrally regulated  as well as peripheral   limitations like utilization.

  Just  to make it more  fun.
 I  do not believe  really that  in performance  there is a separation between centrally  and peripherally as they feed  from each other  with  feedback loops.
  Connett  made a great simple    explanation.
 Here a  small section  and a  comparison   from Andri  on the possible connections  with NIRS feedback.

connett 3 thresholds.jpg 
  That is what we   try to look  with NIRS    delivery  and utilization by looking tHb  trend  and SmO2  reactions.

 Here  the link if you liek to  read deeper.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golden-cheetah-users/lmwEVcGrO1k

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Now here  an add on from a great ongoing discussion :

  Just from eyeballing we can see that between approx 15min and 40min (=25min total) the average power is around 255W maybe even somewhere in between 255-260W (clearly you spend more time above 250 than below). I suspect that during this period your perception of effort was that you felt as though you were at threshold, not above?  Then you drop below 250 and average 240-245 or thereabouts.  So if you are supposed to be able to maintain threshold for about 60min, then you should be able to maintain this power .

So  from our  point of view  the question  would come  up.
 What caused  the " fatigue " or better the drop so 240 +. Was it a utilization limitation    due  to  certain problems  or was it a delivery limitation.
 So we would look , whether there was a specific trend in tHb  and SmO2  at that particular  time  situation and if we have HR  and RF as well we have even a better picture  on  limiter  and compensator.
. This  than  would  show, that the change in wattage  as well changed or did  not change the physiological stimulation.
  Here three  workouts  on a specif intensity  some may name it FTP  or  some may name it CP. I name it a  stable wattage  workout tryout.

1. mark workout thb smo2.jpg


What can you see  and what  will the tHb trend   possibly influence on other systems ?

 Now  same athlete  with  an other  reactions.

  workout  smo2  thb stabel.jpg


Above  another workout  with a very different  physiological stimmulation  and  it all depends  what the  goal  of the workout is.
 Therefor  we use wattage as a guide  of feedback on performance  but love  as well  to know, what today may be different by thesame performance ( wattage )   in the way we  create or  are able to produce this wattage.
 What  may be triggered today  compared  to   the same wattage perhaps  1 week ago.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Here another view into   another wold  of   training.
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golden-cheetah-users/0tVLZNDkFHU  This is not  a  critic  but  an interesting reading  and it shows  how very different  we look at    activities  ( not just  cycling )  and  how  other great  groups look at it.

One section I love is  ( again my biased  selective reading )


 Yes, it has been done to death [wink]
 
The numbers really do reflect what you did, leave them as they are.
 
The big differences are generally because;
1) You overheat if you don't have a few fans, hydration too can suffer
2) Momentum and Inertial load places a different strain through the pedal stroke
3) Micro-changes to resistance you get on the road seem to help
4) Road riding spreads across different muscle groups as you shift about, climb, corner etc
5) Freewheeling / downhill recovery helps to be fresh for hard efforts
6) Inclines will use different muscle groups that don't get stimulated on the turbo
7) Sheer mental boredom hits your motivation
 
There are other factors, but I think thats most of the biggies.
All can be overcome in different ways, I prefer to just go outside and get cold/wet !
 
We're not robots [smile]
 
Mark


This  is  sooooo true. That's  why  we  look at physiologial reactions  to see  how the  physiological response is  as we are not  robots.
 If we go very  simple through the above points .
1. Overheat -  blood  flow shift   to the surface, -  Stroke volume drop - tHb  drop / SmO2  will look different / respiration will be different/ O2  disscurve  different /   utilization change  and delivery change, all seen  when you use  )  cardiac  hemodynamic  tiools  combiend  with VO2  information on respiration   combined  with SEMG  and blood values  and combines  last but not least  with direct feedback over any NIRS  equipment..
see our very basic  you tube  discussion.

cannon.jpg   


  ecgm tools.jpg 



At the end  too expensive  too complex  for most of us  too many datas  so let's go back to basic  ideas. wattage  as performance  and NIRS  as the  physiological connector  on why  the same wattage is the same wattage  but not the same physiological stimmulation in many cases  but for sure in this case.

2. Momentum and Inertial load places a different strain through the pedal stroke

 Absolutely  and can be viewed  live  with tHb  reactions tHb  down or up  or even flat. all feedbacks  who will show the difference between on the road  and on  even different  indoor  trainers  depending on how they create resistance.


4. Road riding spreads across different muscle groups as you shift about, climb, corner etc

 Absolitely , which changes  anything due to different intermuscular  coordination . When on the trianer we may have a  muscular limitation  and see that in the tHb  trend  on the road  we suddently may have a  cardiac limitation   as well visuable on a different tHb trend..

 So  that is, where individual  " zoning"  and daily feedback  can help to   understand  what stimmulation  you may  get  oby 220 watt on a trianer  versus  220  watt outside  and so on.


5/6   Freewheeling / downhill recovery helps to be fresh for hard efforts
6) Inclines will use different muscle groups that don't get stimulated on the turbo

 Nothing to add as it is so  true. Same wattage  or  zoning based on wattage may be off 
but you can use wattage and combien  with  bio markers like HR  RF  and SmO2  and tHb  and you  can decide what you like to stimmulate  instead of hoping it may do what the theory  may suggest.??

We  use this daily  just now  in 5 min on  patients  coming in  and do  any activity  from knee rehab  to cardiac  rehab   to elbow rehab  and more. It is all basically the same.
 Finindg the  optimal / individual stimmulation in activity patterns  to  try to create a  reaction towards a better performance. 

Thanks  to the great  information  check out  golden cheetah. The  cycling  information pushing the edge.


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Here a great criticl thought  form te baove  forum :

This is not a GC related as we have sorted that, and slightly in depth but you seem to be a wealth of knowledge [smile]
As they are real power numbers, Is the physiological response of doing a 20 min @ 250w on the road and turbo going to be the same, given the heart rate will be 160 vs 170 etc?
I am a little worried now that i am "cheating" my self by thinking I am doing more than I actually am.

Good  question isn't  it ?
 
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